how to time and true a savage/stevens?
- Thread starter cowboy717
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
nfhjr62
Well-Known Member
Leave to the gun smith UNLESS you have a Machine Shop in the FAMILY
Fitch
Well-Known Member
I do my own - a Savage is easier to deal with because the bolt has a floating head which eliminates the need to sleeve the bolt or to do much of anything to it, and the receiver is round so it is easy to bed although some care has to be taken with the rear pillar.
I true the front face of the receiver to the bolt bore, machine a stub to use for truing the face of the barrel nut, use a competition recoil lug from Sharp Shooter Supply, dual pillar bed the receiver to the stock (I prefer wood or laminated stocks), install the barrel using go and no-go gages, and they shoot into a half MOA or smaller with the right loads.
That said, it does take an understanding of receiver/bore geometry, some skill with a lathe, the right tooling, and some practice to get it right. I've not messed with bolt timing. I lube the cocking and locking surfaces with a tiny bit of Lucas #2 red and sticky (or something like that) and they work just fine.
You can change barrels on a Savage with out doing anything to the receiver or even needing a lathe. Barrel vise, barrel nut wrench, go/no-go gages and you're good to go.
I do the little extra receiver work but I'm not sure how much good it does on a Savage with the floating bolt head and barrel nut. I've never been able to do a good comparative test to quantify the improvement, if any. There are Savages that shoot bug holes that have been trued and Savages that shoot bug holes that haven't been trued. You pick your pony and take your ride.
I have seen Savages shoot a "lot" better than factory with just a simple barrel swap. For all their reputation for accuracy, I've seen more barrels with chatter marks and other ugliness in Savages than any other brand. They often shoot reasonably well even with the chatter marks but they can be a bear to get clean.
I think if gun writers worried less about making the manufacturer's happy and published bore pictures (chamber, crown, and the worst places inbetween) of every rifle they reviewed, the industry would see a huge improvement in bore quality almost overnight. Alas, I think most gun writers wouldn't have a clue what they were looking at if they did take the pictures.
Savage barrel quality can range from superb to downright ugly. Talking about ugly, this is a picture of the barrel I took off my Savage Model 10 .243Win:
Pretty ugly.
On the other hand, I have a new Savage 112BVSS in 7mmMag that has an absolutely georgeous bore and throat. This is the throat after 30 rounds:
Factory rifles just don't get much better than that. The crown was a little rough but that was easy to fix. With receiver truing, a new crown, and epoxy pillar bedding it shoots 1/3 MOA or less with handloads.
Fitch
I true the front face of the receiver to the bolt bore, machine a stub to use for truing the face of the barrel nut, use a competition recoil lug from Sharp Shooter Supply, dual pillar bed the receiver to the stock (I prefer wood or laminated stocks), install the barrel using go and no-go gages, and they shoot into a half MOA or smaller with the right loads.
That said, it does take an understanding of receiver/bore geometry, some skill with a lathe, the right tooling, and some practice to get it right. I've not messed with bolt timing. I lube the cocking and locking surfaces with a tiny bit of Lucas #2 red and sticky (or something like that) and they work just fine.
You can change barrels on a Savage with out doing anything to the receiver or even needing a lathe. Barrel vise, barrel nut wrench, go/no-go gages and you're good to go.
I do the little extra receiver work but I'm not sure how much good it does on a Savage with the floating bolt head and barrel nut. I've never been able to do a good comparative test to quantify the improvement, if any. There are Savages that shoot bug holes that have been trued and Savages that shoot bug holes that haven't been trued. You pick your pony and take your ride.
I have seen Savages shoot a "lot" better than factory with just a simple barrel swap. For all their reputation for accuracy, I've seen more barrels with chatter marks and other ugliness in Savages than any other brand. They often shoot reasonably well even with the chatter marks but they can be a bear to get clean.
I think if gun writers worried less about making the manufacturer's happy and published bore pictures (chamber, crown, and the worst places inbetween) of every rifle they reviewed, the industry would see a huge improvement in bore quality almost overnight. Alas, I think most gun writers wouldn't have a clue what they were looking at if they did take the pictures.
Savage barrel quality can range from superb to downright ugly. Talking about ugly, this is a picture of the barrel I took off my Savage Model 10 .243Win:
Pretty ugly.
On the other hand, I have a new Savage 112BVSS in 7mmMag that has an absolutely georgeous bore and throat. This is the throat after 30 rounds:
Factory rifles just don't get much better than that. The crown was a little rough but that was easy to fix. With receiver truing, a new crown, and epoxy pillar bedding it shoots 1/3 MOA or less with handloads.
Fitch
Rustystud
Well-Known Member
Timing and truing a Savage:
Savages are mass produced and designed to be put together in a production line from a bin of parts.
The bolt bolt bodies are chrome plated tubing drawn on a mandrel. The triggers, trigger hangers, and sears are forged or stamped out.
Their factory barrel, actions, and floating bolt head are the hear of their inherent accuracy.
Some of the things that are done to improve on the Savage rifles are bolt fit, alignment and timing.
The factory actions bolt race are .7015 ID and the factory bolt bodies are usually about .696 OD. Real sloppy in comparison to other manufactures.
The cocking ramps are cut with an end mill and the helical leaves something to be desired.
The main screw, compresses against the cocking piece sleave that compresses the firing pin spring. Slop and deflection in the spring adds to the friction in cocking.
Bolt lift on cocking is the major complaint about Savages. Bolt lift can be reduced by 50-60 percent by timing and truing Savage actions.
Some gunsmiths use a deprimed spent 38/357 magnum case cut to fit inside the cocking piece sleeve and insert a ball bearing in the primer pocket. The ball provides a smaller and slicker surface for the main screw to mate up against.
I drill and tap the main screw .250 X 28tpi and insert a .750 x .250 28tpi grade 8 cone point set screw. I also make a shouldered cap with a center indentation for the set screw to mate with. This does several thisngs it reduces the friction, it aligns the firing pin, and it allows for external firing pin spring tension adjustment.
The bolt handles are fit to the back of the bolt and held in place by the main screw.
Upon opening the holt handle rubs up against the ramp on the rear baffle this is where the bolt gets its primary extraction.
When bolt head lugs are turned or lapped they can move the primmary extraction out of timing. There for the bolt body must be shortened to bring the primmary extraction back.
I recomend that folks also replace their factory bolt body with a .701 PT&G bolt body that is precision ground form tool steel. this requires some turning and machining to make it fit properly.
There are several friction points between the trigger, trigger hanger, and sear that should also be deburred and polished.
The bolt lugs should be turned and lapped into 60% or better bilateral engagement.
During the same operation the bolt face should be machined.
For high presure cartridges the bolthead should have the firing pin hole centered and bushed.
I have not seen any significant difference in accuracy between barrels using the nut vs shouldered barrels. The nut just makes headspacing easy and barrels interchangeable between different actions.
There is no reason a Savage rifle can not shoot with the best and most expensive factory actions.
Nat Lambeth
Savages are mass produced and designed to be put together in a production line from a bin of parts.
The bolt bolt bodies are chrome plated tubing drawn on a mandrel. The triggers, trigger hangers, and sears are forged or stamped out.
Their factory barrel, actions, and floating bolt head are the hear of their inherent accuracy.
Some of the things that are done to improve on the Savage rifles are bolt fit, alignment and timing.
The factory actions bolt race are .7015 ID and the factory bolt bodies are usually about .696 OD. Real sloppy in comparison to other manufactures.
The cocking ramps are cut with an end mill and the helical leaves something to be desired.
The main screw, compresses against the cocking piece sleave that compresses the firing pin spring. Slop and deflection in the spring adds to the friction in cocking.
Bolt lift on cocking is the major complaint about Savages. Bolt lift can be reduced by 50-60 percent by timing and truing Savage actions.
Some gunsmiths use a deprimed spent 38/357 magnum case cut to fit inside the cocking piece sleeve and insert a ball bearing in the primer pocket. The ball provides a smaller and slicker surface for the main screw to mate up against.
I drill and tap the main screw .250 X 28tpi and insert a .750 x .250 28tpi grade 8 cone point set screw. I also make a shouldered cap with a center indentation for the set screw to mate with. This does several thisngs it reduces the friction, it aligns the firing pin, and it allows for external firing pin spring tension adjustment.
The bolt handles are fit to the back of the bolt and held in place by the main screw.
Upon opening the holt handle rubs up against the ramp on the rear baffle this is where the bolt gets its primary extraction.
When bolt head lugs are turned or lapped they can move the primmary extraction out of timing. There for the bolt body must be shortened to bring the primmary extraction back.
I recomend that folks also replace their factory bolt body with a .701 PT&G bolt body that is precision ground form tool steel. this requires some turning and machining to make it fit properly.
There are several friction points between the trigger, trigger hanger, and sear that should also be deburred and polished.
The bolt lugs should be turned and lapped into 60% or better bilateral engagement.
During the same operation the bolt face should be machined.
For high presure cartridges the bolthead should have the firing pin hole centered and bushed.
I have not seen any significant difference in accuracy between barrels using the nut vs shouldered barrels. The nut just makes headspacing easy and barrels interchangeable between different actions.
There is no reason a Savage rifle can not shoot with the best and most expensive factory actions.
Nat Lambeth
Nape.270
Well-Known Member
Great post.
Do you guys feal that the savage target action needs this same kind of attention?
Do you guys feal that the savage target action needs this same kind of attention?
Rustystud
Well-Known Member
Absolutely
They are better because they are made in a different process. But the components are interchangeable other than the Target trigger spring weight.
I have multiple customers who are F-Class shooters shooting Savages and are very competetive. Several have National Records to their credits.
Nat Lambeth
They are better because they are made in a different process. But the components are interchangeable other than the Target trigger spring weight.
I have multiple customers who are F-Class shooters shooting Savages and are very competetive. Several have National Records to their credits.
Nat Lambeth
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Mr. Lambeth,
I've been tinkering with Savages a little and I've fairly well figured out how to true the action but truing the bolt is a little harder for me to figure out, mainly since it is a floating head it seem that you wouldn't want do it as a solid bolt design. I just can envision it in my mind how to true the lugs and bolt face. Would appreciate any help!!
I've been tinkering with Savages a little and I've fairly well figured out how to true the action but truing the bolt is a little harder for me to figure out, mainly since it is a floating head it seem that you wouldn't want do it as a solid bolt design. I just can envision it in my mind how to true the lugs and bolt face. Would appreciate any help!!
Rustystud
Well-Known Member
There are several ways to true the action.
One is to use a double ended spider (action truing jig) with a precision ground mandrel. Using .0001 indicator to align the bolt race to the spindel. Then to recut the thereads with a single point threading tool. While you have it dialed in you would also face the lug embuttments.
Another way to true up the threads is using a PT&G action truing jig . It has a combination tap/mandrel and uses bushings to aline the tool with the bolt race way.
PT&G also makes a boltway reamer.
The action face can be trued with the action on the mandre and using a lathe bit.
Savages come with a stamped out Recoil lug. This should be replaced with a precision ground recoil lug.
Nat Lambeth
One is to use a double ended spider (action truing jig) with a precision ground mandrel. Using .0001 indicator to align the bolt race to the spindel. Then to recut the thereads with a single point threading tool. While you have it dialed in you would also face the lug embuttments.
Another way to true up the threads is using a PT&G action truing jig . It has a combination tap/mandrel and uses bushings to aline the tool with the bolt race way.
PT&G also makes a boltway reamer.
The action face can be trued with the action on the mandre and using a lathe bit.
Savages come with a stamped out Recoil lug. This should be replaced with a precision ground recoil lug.
Nat Lambeth
geargrinder
Well-Known Member
Here's a copy of a copy from Fred of SSS.
The following is Fred's own description of the Truing & Timing service he offers for Savage actions.
Truing and Timing the Savage Action
When I build a rifle, truing and timing the action is a standard procedure. Most shooters understand the concept of truing, but are confused about what "timing" is. When an action is out of time, it is typical that the bolt operation is stiff, bolting or unbolting. This is caused by several things, such as the cocking ratio being out of balance, and the sear engaging too early or too late. Another geometry problem is that the lead-in ramps and the primary extraction are not synchronized, but are actually in conflict with one another. When we true an action, it consists of much more than just machining a few mating surfaces. First the lead-in angles (the ramps that lead into the lug seats) are re-cut to a true helical cam. The factory cuts are made with an end-mill, and are not helical. A helical cam is like a spiral staircase, and I have developed special tooling to precisely cut the lead-in angles to engage the whole width of the bolt lugs. The receiver face and the lug seats are machined to square them up relative to the receiver threads, not to the bore of the receiver like most gunsmiths would do using conventional wisdom. The reason for this is the barrel will be square to the bolt face. Concentricity behind the bolt head is not critical, as the "float" in the bolt head will allow the bolt body to be off center as much as .045" in any direction, and still get full lug contact, although I've never seen one that bad.
The bolt head is squared, front and back and the firing pin protrusion is reset to .040" +- .005". After this is done, the firing pin travel is corrected and timed with the sear and trigger. At this time the cocking ratio is corrected to avoid over cocking and hard bolt lift. The cocking ramps are reground to the correct angle, and lastly the barrel nut is faced for 100% contact.
The following is Fred's own description of the Truing & Timing service he offers for Savage actions.
Truing and Timing the Savage Action
When I build a rifle, truing and timing the action is a standard procedure. Most shooters understand the concept of truing, but are confused about what "timing" is. When an action is out of time, it is typical that the bolt operation is stiff, bolting or unbolting. This is caused by several things, such as the cocking ratio being out of balance, and the sear engaging too early or too late. Another geometry problem is that the lead-in ramps and the primary extraction are not synchronized, but are actually in conflict with one another. When we true an action, it consists of much more than just machining a few mating surfaces. First the lead-in angles (the ramps that lead into the lug seats) are re-cut to a true helical cam. The factory cuts are made with an end-mill, and are not helical. A helical cam is like a spiral staircase, and I have developed special tooling to precisely cut the lead-in angles to engage the whole width of the bolt lugs. The receiver face and the lug seats are machined to square them up relative to the receiver threads, not to the bore of the receiver like most gunsmiths would do using conventional wisdom. The reason for this is the barrel will be square to the bolt face. Concentricity behind the bolt head is not critical, as the "float" in the bolt head will allow the bolt body to be off center as much as .045" in any direction, and still get full lug contact, although I've never seen one that bad.
The bolt head is squared, front and back and the firing pin protrusion is reset to .040" +- .005". After this is done, the firing pin travel is corrected and timed with the sear and trigger. At this time the cocking ratio is corrected to avoid over cocking and hard bolt lift. The cocking ramps are reground to the correct angle, and lastly the barrel nut is faced for 100% contact.
Rustystud
Well-Known Member
There are several "big name gunsmiths" who keep the other gunsmiths who work on Savages covered up with work.
Tighter, straighter, co-axial and concentric are always better conditions found in an action. Period
Nat Lambeth
Tighter, straighter, co-axial and concentric are always better conditions found in an action. Period
Nat Lambeth
joe0121
Well-Known Member
I agree about bolt lift is INSANE. So bad it makes you think you stuck a case because of a hot load. But even just lifting the bolt on an empty chamber is out of control. Ahwell I paid 300 bucks for it. It's a stevens and I'm waiting on a new stock.
