How far can I expect to shoot with this load?

[PowellSixO]

This is my VLD seating depth test. The center is the touching the lands. The upper left is the 0.005" off the lands group. The other groups are further from the lands. Granted there is a flyer on the center target but subsequent testing showed the touching the lands loads to be the best for accuracy.

Is there any threat of leaving a bullet in the barrel if your round has the bullet just touching the lands (if your were to eject the round without firing it)?

 

[foggybottombob]

Is there any threat of leaving a bullet in the barrel if your round has the bullet just touching the lands (if your were to eject the round without firing it)?

Not if it just touches. But the only way to know that is to have a bullet comparator like I mentioned in my first post.

Note that Berger has made several bullets that they call Hybrids or Classic Hunter bullets which have a hybrid tangent/secant ogive. These are supposed to not be sensitive to seating depth like the VLDs are. But my first try with some Classic Hunter Bullets did not go well. I had a 6" group at 200 yds. I plan to play with them a little more later.

 

[PowellSixO]

Not if it just touches. But the only way to know that is to have a bullet comparator like I mentioned in my first post.

Note that Berger has made several bullets that they call Hybrids or Classic Hunter bullets which have a hybrid tangent/secant ogive. These are supposed to not be sensitive to seating depth like the VLDs are. But my first try with some Classic Hunter Bullets did not go well. I had a 6" group at 200 yds. I plan to play with them a little more later.

Ok thanks. What I did was, I took a once fired case and cut a slit in the neck. This allowed the case to just hold a bullet (but also allowed it to slide up and down in the neck). I would put the round at 3.750" and chamber the round. Then I would extract it and measure it. This allowed the bullet to touch the lands, stop, and slide back into the case. I did it 20 times. About 15 out of the 20 times it measured exactly 3.425". The other 5 times it was off by .005" + or -, and that may have been because I bumped the round when extracting it. I feel this is a fairly accurate way to measure my COAL for a round that's just touching the lands. An old timer told me how to do this. What do you guys think?

 

[foggybottombob]

Ok thanks. What I did was, I took a once fired case and cut a slit in the neck. This allowed the case to just hold a bullet (but also allowed it to slide up and down in the neck). I would put the round at 3.750" and chamber the round. Then I would extract it and measure it. This allowed the bullet to touch the lands, stop, and slide back into the case. I did it 20 times. About 15 out of the 20 times it measured exactly 3.425". The other 5 times it was off by .005" + or -, and that may have been because I bumped the round when extracting it. I feel this is a fairly accurate way to measure my COAL for a round that's just touching the lands. An old timer told me how to do this. What do you guys think?

If you measured from the base of the round to the tip of the bullet then you still don't know what the measurement is from the base of the bullet to where the bullet contacts the lands at the ogive.

One more time, this is why you need a bullet comparator. This lets you measure from the base of the bullet to where the ogive contacts lands. The distance from the ogive to the tip of the bullet can vary at least 0.005" from one bullet to the next. Measuring overall cartridge length is not accurate enough to allow you to load cartridges with bullets consistently touching the lands.

There is no need to cut a case to do the test you did. Take a fired case and a bullet will just fall into that case. You will need to flatten the case neck a little to make the bullet stick a bit. I put magic marker on a bullet so you can see where it slid into the case when you chamber it. If it slides back out a bit when you eject the cartridge this shows up in the magic marker as little scrape marks.

 

[PowellSixO]

If you measured from the base of the round to the tip of the bullet then you still don't know what the measurement is from the base of the bullet to where the bullet contacts the lands at the ogive.

One more time, this is why you need a bullet comparator. This lets you measure from the base of the bullet to where the ogive contacts lands. The distance from the ogive to the tip of the bullet can vary at least 0.005" from one bullet to the next. Measuring overall cartridge length is not accurate enough to allow you to load cartridges with bullets consistently touching the lands.

There is no need to cut a case to do the test you did. Take a fired case and a bullet will just fall into that case. You will need to flatten the case neck a little to make the bullet stick a bit. I put magic marker on a bullet so you can see where it slid into the case when you chamber it. If it slides back out a bit when you eject the cartridge this shows up in the magic marker as little scrape marks.

Ok I see. Thanks. I guess I have one more thing on my list to buy. Thanks for the info so far. I have a lot to learn still. This is the first time in my life I have ever tried to reload. I've only had my equipment for about 3-4 months now.

 

[foggybottombob]

You only need a comparator if you are trying to load touching the lands. If your loads were for 0.005" or more away from the lands you can get by without it. If you want to shoot out past 500 yards then you have to weigh every powder charge too. That is where the reloading time comes in if you don't have an automated way to do it.

 

[PowellSixO]

You only need a comparator if you are trying to load touching the lands. If your loads were for 0.005" or more away from the lands you can get by without it. If you want to shoot out past 500 yards then you have to weigh every powder charge too. That is where the reloading time comes in if you don't have an automated way to do it.

Yeah I'm sure it's going to be time consuming, but it will be worth it. My goal is to make every round as close to perfect as possible. This is not a game of speed, or an attempt to save money for me. This is another hobby for me, so I am going for precision and accuracy. All the tips you can throw my way I would be more than willing to soak em up.

 

[foggybottombob]

Yeah I'm sure it's going to be time consuming, but it will be worth it. My goal is to make every round as close to perfect as possible. This is not a game of speed, or an attempt to save money for me. This is another hobby for me, so I am going for precision and accuracy. All the tips you can throw my way I would be more than willing to soak em up.

Weighing charges to the nearest 1/10 th of a grain is the minimum you need. I shoot short kernel extruded powder and sometimes have to pick two or three short kernels out of a pan on my RCBS charge master. It takes only 2 or 3 kernels of this powder to make a tenth of a grain. That might amount to 40 fps difference on the chrony. I use a high energy double base powder for the load I play with the most so other powders would probably not have that much velocity variation for a couple of kernels. But you have to be precise with your powder charges.

I neck size for the first 5 loadings of a case then I anneal the neck and full length resize it to push the shoulder back 1 or 2 thousandths from where it is when I have first fired the case in my rifle. You need another comparator type bushing to measure where your case shoulder is with respect to the base of the case for any particular rifle. These comparator sets are only $30 or so. Of course you need a set of calipers to go with it. I think you already have that. I reloaded as a teen and barely knew what I was doing. It's a wonder I still have my face. But as a 56 year old engineer I think I understand it now.

 

[429421Cowboy]

I shoot a 7mm Rem Mag M700 with Berger 168VLDs as my elk-deer-coyote-skunk-anything else i need to shoot rig, since i can't afford a dedicated elk rig.
I have been very impressed with the VLDs so far, although i have yet to even get a chance to put one in an elk after two seasons of use. I run them at a sedate 2900fps, which does not beat me badly and makes practice a breeze without a brake or anything other than the fact that it is a purposely heavy rifle. By using Berger's free downloadable calculator, i am showing running out of acceptable elk killing steam (1500ft/lbs) at exactly 600 yards. Which for where we hunt, is not difficult to manage, but getting inside 300 could be impossible, so it pays to have a gun that can hit them at that range.

Two things i would reccomend you do: 1. Crony, so you can figure out your loads, and as you said, figure out sight dope, 2. Download the ballistics calculator from Berger, i use mine for many many things, often i will run a load through that before i try a new bullet, just to decide where to start from.

Be aware that the dope you get will be close, but not dead on from any ballistics calculator, it will give you a good place to start from in terms of MOA, but you will likely need to adjust from there. It is not a "plug and play" system, each rifle is different, and only rounds downrange can give you that intel.
Congrats on drawing your tag, good luck on the hunt!

 

[PowellSixO]

I shoot a 7mm Rem Mag M700 with Berger 168VLDs as my elk-deer-coyote-skunk-anything else i need to shoot rig, since i can't afford a dedicated elk rig.
I have been very impressed with the VLDs so far, although i have yet to even get a chance to put one in an elk after two seasons of use. I run them at a sedate 2900fps, which does not beat me badly and makes practice a breeze without a brake or anything other than the fact that it is a purposely heavy rifle. By using Berger's free downloadable calculator, i am showing running out of acceptable elk killing steam (1500ft/lbs) at exactly 600 yards. Which for where we hunt, is not difficult to manage, but getting inside 300 could be impossible, so it pays to have a gun that can hit them at that range.

Two things i would reccomend you do: 1. Crony, so you can figure out your loads, and as you said, figure out sight dope, 2. Download the ballistics calculator from Berger, i use mine for many many things, often i will run a load through that before i try a new bullet, just to decide where to start from.

Be aware that the dope you get will be close, but not dead on from any ballistics calculator, it will give you a good place to start from in terms of MOA, but you will likely need to adjust from there. It is not a "plug and play" system, each rifle is different, and only rounds downrange can give you that intel.
Congrats on drawing your tag, good luck on the hunt!

Thanks for that info. That helps a lot. I'm hopeing to get my loads up to 3000 fps if the accuracy will stay that high, and I don't have signs of pressure with my cases. Maybe I will get lucky and be able to carry 1500ft/lbs out to 650 yards or so. I'm gonna clean my garage up tonight and get some loads worked up so I can go to the range on friday (fingers crossed). I've been buisy with work and last weekend I had a bass tourney to fish. Turned out for the best though. My partner and I placed 1st overall and had big fish on both days. Ended up taking about a grand home each. Now I have a little money to throw around on a chronograph and a few other goodies. He wants me to fish another one this weekend, so I'll have sat and sun full but we won't pre fish on friday this time.

 

[foggybottombob]

Thanks for that info. That helps a lot. I'm hopeing to get my loads up to 3000 fps if the accuracy will stay that high, and I don't have signs of pressure with my cases. Maybe I will get lucky and be able to carry 1500ft/lbs out to 650 yards or so. I'm gonna clean my garage up tonight and get some loads worked up so I can go to the range on friday (fingers crossed). I've been buisy with work and last weekend I had a bass tourney to fish. Turned out for the best though. My partner and I placed 1st overall and had big fish on both days. Ended up taking about a grand home each. Now I have a little money to throw around on a chronograph and a few other goodies. He wants me to fish another one this weekend, so I'll have sat and sun full but we won't pre fish on friday this time.

The highest velocity I've been able to get in my .270 win is using Vhitavouri N-560 and there are no pressure signs. Anything else I used to approach those velocities did show pressure signs. I notice that the Berger manual lists this powder and Ramshot Magnum for their 168 grain VLDs at a max velocity of about 3000 fps in a 26" barrel. I got Berger's velocities they listed for a 24" barrel in my 22" barrel using less than their listed max load of VV N-560. It is expensive but has a very high energy density. And I was getting sub MOA groups with that high velocity load using Berger and Nosler bullets.

 

[PowellSixO]

The highest velocity I've been able to get in my .270 win is using Vhitavouri N-560 and there are no pressure signs. Anything else I used to approach those velocities did show pressure signs. I notice that the Berger manual lists this powder and Ramshot Magnum for their 168 grain VLDs at a max velocity of about 3000 fps in a 26" barrel. I got Berger's velocities they listed for a 24" barrel in my 22" barrel using less than their listed max load of VV N-560. It is expensive but has a very high energy density. And I was getting sub MOA groups with that high velocity load using Berger and Nosler bullets.

I might have to give that powder a try if I can find any. Earlier you were telling me about the importance of bullet seating depth, and how it is a critical part of accuracy. You also said that just measuring coal from the tip of the bullet to the bottom of the case wouldn't be accurate due to the bullets varrying in length. I totaly get what you are saying, but I was thinking about it and had another question. If my bullet seating die press's the bullet in from the tip of the bullet, then what you say would be 100% correct. But I have this thought (and I may be wrong), and thought I would run it by you. If the bullet seating die press's the bullet into the case with contact to the ogive rather than the tip of the bullet, wouldn't that be acceptable? If I took a bullet and placed it in a once fired case (no powder or primer) and fed it into the rifle and closed the bolt a few times allowing the bullet to touch the lands and then slide back into the case. Then I could measure the coal of this dummy round and adjust my bullet seating die to seat this dummy bullet to the coal of my dummy round, then every bullet after that would have the same bullet seating depth. The coal would be different on all of the rounds due to the bullet lengths being different, but the seating depth would be consistent on all of the rounds correct? That is IF my seating die press's the bullet in on the ogive rather than the bullet tip correct? Sorry so long, but I was just pondering this and thought I would ask. Thanks again for all the help so far.

 

[foggybottombob]

I might have to give that powder a try if I can find any. Earlier you were telling me about the importance of bullet seating depth, and how it is a critical part of accuracy. You also said that just measuring coal from the tip of the bullet to the bottom of the case wouldn't be accurate due to the bullets varrying in length. I totaly get what you are saying, but I was thinking about it and had another question. If my bullet seating die press's the bullet in from the tip of the bullet, then what you say would be 100% correct. But I have this thought (and I may be wrong), and thought I would run it by you. If the bullet seating die press's the bullet into the case with contact to the ogive rather than the tip of the bullet, wouldn't that be acceptable? If I took a bullet and placed it in a once fired case (no powder or primer) and fed it into the rifle and closed the bolt a few times allowing the bullet to touch the lands and then slide back into the case. Then I could measure the coal of this dummy round and adjust my bullet seating die to seat this dummy bullet to the coal of my dummy round, then every bullet after that would have the same bullet seating depth. The coal would be different on all of the rounds due to the bullet lengths being different, but the seating depth would be consistent on all of the rounds correct? That is IF my seating die press's the bullet in on the ogive rather than the bullet tip correct? Sorry so long, but I was just pondering this and thought I would ask. Thanks again for all the help so far.

yes that will work but you have to have such a seating die. I just ordered a Forster micrometer die today for the reason you speak of. Now the only bullet I have used that is sensitive to seating depth for my rifle is the Berger .277 cal VLD. Nosler bullets I have played with do not have that issue. I use a hornady bullet seating die now and the part in the die that contacts the bullet is nowhere near where the ogive is. I would still recommend getting a case measurement from the back of the case to the ogive using a bullet comparator bushing on your calipers to use as a periodic check. Note that you don't need any of this unless you are using a bullet that has this seating sensitivity in your own rifle. There is no way to guess that some bullet will have this property for you. You just have to experiment.

 

[PowellSixO]

yes that will work but you have to have such a seating die. I just ordered a Forster micrometer die today for the reason you speak of. Now the only bullet I have used that is sensitive to seating depth for my rifle is the Berger .277 cal VLD. Nosler bullets I have played with do not have that issue. I use a hornady bullet seating die now and the part in the die that contacts the bullet is nowhere near where the ogive is. I would still recommend getting a case measurement from the back of the case to the ogive using a bullet comparator bushing on your calipers to use as a periodic check. Note that you don't need any of this unless you are using a bullet that has this seating sensitivity in your own rifle. There is no way to guess that some bullet will have this property for you. You just have to experiment.

That's what I thought too, but my rcbs die presses the bullet on the ogive not on the tip. Or at least it does on the Bergers I'm using. So I should be good to go right? I'll post a picture tomorrow of where the die hits the ogive to give you a better idea. Now I need to buy a chronograph.