No offense taken,I just thought you misunderstood my question.Thanks for clearing that up.I am hoping to see alot of improvements when I get my new savage this week.I agree with most people,it is crucial for long range hunting to have a low SD,I am just trying to figure how to lower it.
How do you lower S.D.?
- Thread starter KQguy
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KQguy
To get .300WM into 0.5" and less, one needs to pay more attention into everything so to speak. Try different primers, maybe H4831SC powder, and bring that load into 3000fps range and fiddle with the powder charges and try to jump the bullet from 0.7 to 1.5mm.
If nothing helps you mah have to seriously look into some benchrest accuracy techniques. Your barrel also may have certain limitations
Peter
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To get .300WM into 0.5" and less, one needs to pay more attention into everything so to speak. Try different primers, maybe H4831SC powder, and bring that load into 3000fps range and fiddle with the powder charges and try to jump the bullet from 0.7 to 1.5mm.
If nothing helps you mah have to seriously look into some benchrest accuracy techniques. Your barrel also may have certain limitations
Peter
I'm not hyjacking the tread, but this pertains to both questions. Every rifle has it's own personality - so to speak. Some will handle hotter loads than others due to a variety of things including but not limited to freebore, chamber demensions, rate of twist, number of rifles, quality of bore, size of bore, lenght of barrel. You just have to start testing and watch close for pressure signs.
Steve Shelp
Well-Known Member
For a 300 Win Mag if you can't get R22 or H4831 to work with 180 to 200gr class bullets, then something is usually wrong with the shooter or with the rifle. That case just loves those powders. I've seen it time and time again. My last 300 Winny I used 72gr R22 with Fed 215 primers shooting 180gr Nosler BTs for a deer load out of a Sendero. That load would group consistantly at 100yds. Probably the best shooting factory hunting rifle I've ever owned.
Then I decided to take it to a registered match one day and shoot it in LG class just to see what it would do. Everything was just as I hunted with except I used an attachment to the front sling swivel to help it semi-ride the bags better and added shims under the rear of the 1 peice base mount to get on paper. I still used my Leupold VX-II 4x-12x scope with the Nosler bullets though.
My first group in competition was 16"?? for 5 shots at 1000yds. And it was all vertical. The group was only about 6 or 7" wide.
Well I adjusted the load and shot it several more times that shooting season. When it was all said and done I had gone to Fed 210s and bumped the load up to 75gr R22 and everything else staying the same. My smallest group that summer was 7.???" for 5 shots from a 100% box stock rifle using hunting bullets and a VarX II 4-12 scope. Sure wish I never sold it.
The moral of the story is the Fed 215 load with 72gr of powder shot great at 100yds and I killed a lot of deer and "stuff" with it at varying ranges. The Fed 210 load with 75gr of powder didn't shoot as good at 100yds but it got rid of the up/down at long range. And I couldn't tell you what the SD was.
The paper told me want I needed to know to make that rifle shoot. When it works on paper the chrono numbers are always there to support the group or else it won't group. But if you concentrate on the spread of the SD, those numbers don't always produce good groups.
So don't get too hung up on SD and chronographs. Work on the load! The primer,powder (type & wgt), and seating depth are where you make your money in load deveolpement. That is 90%+ of the game right there. If you aren't in that 90% bracket all the neck turning, shooting across the chronograph, deburring flash holes, etc, etc is just wasting time and equipment.
Steve
Then I decided to take it to a registered match one day and shoot it in LG class just to see what it would do. Everything was just as I hunted with except I used an attachment to the front sling swivel to help it semi-ride the bags better and added shims under the rear of the 1 peice base mount to get on paper. I still used my Leupold VX-II 4x-12x scope with the Nosler bullets though.
My first group in competition was 16"?? for 5 shots at 1000yds. And it was all vertical. The group was only about 6 or 7" wide.
Well I adjusted the load and shot it several more times that shooting season. When it was all said and done I had gone to Fed 210s and bumped the load up to 75gr R22 and everything else staying the same. My smallest group that summer was 7.???" for 5 shots from a 100% box stock rifle using hunting bullets and a VarX II 4-12 scope. Sure wish I never sold it.
The moral of the story is the Fed 215 load with 72gr of powder shot great at 100yds and I killed a lot of deer and "stuff" with it at varying ranges. The Fed 210 load with 75gr of powder didn't shoot as good at 100yds but it got rid of the up/down at long range. And I couldn't tell you what the SD was.
The paper told me want I needed to know to make that rifle shoot. When it works on paper the chrono numbers are always there to support the group or else it won't group. But if you concentrate on the spread of the SD, those numbers don't always produce good groups.
So don't get too hung up on SD and chronographs. Work on the load! The primer,powder (type & wgt), and seating depth are where you make your money in load deveolpement. That is 90%+ of the game right there. If you aren't in that 90% bracket all the neck turning, shooting across the chronograph, deburring flash holes, etc, etc is just wasting time and equipment.
Steve
W
Weda
Guest
Can you explain this?
Specifically, what is meant by super tight.
Prefer some statistical data to suport this.
overbore
Well-Known Member
SD
In my humble opinion, SD elimination starts with the primer selection and works its way up to the case, ( Uniformed and turned,) powder, bullet length, seating depths and cartridge run-outs. See my primer post as the primer sd is where it begins. Overbore
In my humble opinion, SD elimination starts with the primer selection and works its way up to the case, ( Uniformed and turned,) powder, bullet length, seating depths and cartridge run-outs. See my primer post as the primer sd is where it begins. Overbore
This is one reason I no longer shoot factory rifles because there are so many variables that you have no control over. Short of writing a white paper here you might also consider how long the round is sitting in the chamber before you pull the trigger. Always keep your ammunition at a constant temperature when working up loads. As a matter of course the chambered round is fired within 2 to 3 seconds of closing the bolt. On factory rifles and using regular rests this can be a challenge but the shorter time in the chamber (obviously after you have fired a few rounds) the less heat is transferred to the case and powder and that will impact ignition temperature which in turn will cause pressure differentiations which in turn translates into different velocities.
Have verified this in my own testing after a friend of mine who build my sticks and is also a HOF shooter told me about this little trick a few years ago.. I shoot 1K and even a small increase in velocity will cause dispersion and that is not good thing.
Good Luck!!
Have verified this in my own testing after a friend of mine who build my sticks and is also a HOF shooter told me about this little trick a few years ago.. I shoot 1K and even a small increase in velocity will cause dispersion and that is not good thing.
Good Luck!!
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
Some guys really get upset when their rifles won't produce groups under and inch or inch and a half no matter what they try. But if the load is uniform, and all the normal benchrest precision reloading techniques are followed, the MOA of the group size can be surprisingly good at longer distances.
Natty Bumpo
Well-Known Member
I've been vissiting this site for about a month now and always learn something. I haven't done a great deal of long range shooting and what I have done has just been out to 500 yards. I knew S.D. didn't make a big difference at 100 yards. Didn't know it was so important at long range.
I read this post this morning before I went to work and it has been eating at me all day, I do agree that I have had better luck with RL22 and H4831 than any other powders in a 300 WM, with that said I could not dis agree more with your last paragraph, my analogy might be somewhat in appropriate but to me finding a powder,bullet, brass, primer combo that works in my rifle is just like taking a big POOP you dont do it 90% it is a job that needs done 100%.
I dont know anybody that does not use toilet paper when they POOP, just like I dont know anybody that does not use a chronograph when they do LOAD developement.
That last 5-10% of effort can make a huge difference.
UB
Just to confirm goodgrouper's post,(as opposed to prefering statistical data).
I have witnessed many times that shooting VLD type bullets at 100yds they still exibit "yaw" they have not quite gone to sleep yet.
They might only shoot 1 MOA at 100 yds but after fully stabilized will shoot 1/2 MOA at 500 or 1000yds.
UB
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
UB,
You do have quite the way of putting it plainly!
It surprises me still to this day how many people that own chronos only use them to determine their pet load's velocity. The rest of the time while they are doing load development, the chrono is home in the closet! If more people understood what the chrono could tell them, the less it would be neglected.
