This forum is "longrangehunting.com", not "averagejoehunter.com". Lead tipped spire point bullets, even the boat tail models, have lower ballistic coefficient than their plastic tipped semi boat tail brethern, lower long range velocity, and much more drop at range. Thus most of them are not suitable bullets for the serious long range hunter. This is why very few people on this forum recommend them. The Accubond is simply a NBT with a bonded core. So Lefty has recommended both a poor BC lead tipped bullet and a high BC plastic tip bullet in the same breath.
Hornady 165 SST vs Nosler 165 BLT Hunting
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This forum is "longrangehunting.com", not "averagejoehunter.com". Lead tipped spire point bullets, even the boat tail models, have lower ballistic coefficient than their plastic tipped semi boat tail brethern, lower long range velocity, and much more drop at range. Thus most of them are not suitable bullets for the serious long range hunter. This is why very few people on this forum recommend them. The Accubond is simply a NBT with a bonded core. So Lefty has recommended both a poor BC lead tipped bullet and a high BC plastic tip bullet in the same breath.
They wouldn't be my choice for the LR game but for close to medium distances they are hard to beat in my experience! Very consistent and deadly!
Scot E.
The ballistic coefficient from Nosler Bullets for their plastic tip is .507 sd .271
http://www.nosler.com/Reloading-Data/30-06-Springfield-180-Grains.aspx
The Sierra 3rd manual carries their 180gr spbt @.537 above 2700 fps and above
.530@1701 to 2699fps.......Page 446 of this manual.
The Speer list their 180gr btsp using 3006 data page 485 manual# 14. This bullet carries
a B.C. of .545.....
The plastic tip from Hornady carries a B.C. of .495 on the Amax and the SST .480 these are
listed on page 528 of the 8th edition for the 180gr for the 3006......
Looking at these lead tip bullets they carry a good BC which seems to be a little higher
than the plastic tips........
It seems the B.C. holds true for the 165gr sptb as well as the 180gr ..........someone else wrote the book or
published the information....
I have shot game at long range past 500 yards. THIS IS NOT A COMMON PRACTICE.
Ethics is more than a word....
http://www.nosler.com/Reloading-Data/30-06-Springfield-180-Grains.aspx
The Sierra 3rd manual carries their 180gr spbt @.537 above 2700 fps and above
.530@1701 to 2699fps.......Page 446 of this manual.
The Speer list their 180gr btsp using 3006 data page 485 manual# 14. This bullet carries
a B.C. of .545.....
The plastic tip from Hornady carries a B.C. of .495 on the Amax and the SST .480 these are
listed on page 528 of the 8th edition for the 180gr for the 3006......
Looking at these lead tip bullets they carry a good BC which seems to be a little higher
than the plastic tips........
It seems the B.C. holds true for the 165gr sptb as well as the 180gr ..........someone else wrote the book or
published the information....
I have shot game at long range past 500 yards. THIS IS NOT A COMMON PRACTICE.
Ethics is more than a word....
+1 on the interlocks. I see no need for these expensive "premium" bullets with their fancy looking boxes and mumbo jumbo. The Hornady interlocks are great for just about any kind of N American game. So are all the overlooked bullets that we tend to pass up because they look "old school" like the Speer hot core, Sierra pro hunter. These will also be great on game and have been for decades.
If youre going super long range, then get a high bc boat tail bullet that opens up a low speeds (Amax is great at this) or fragments at lower speeds like the Bergers. I personally prefer the Amax, I also like the Speer spbt for long range. Its a highly accurate and soft bullet. Most prefer Berger for their long range accuracy. A lot of guys use target bullets for long range hunting like the SMK.
The Amax is a target bullet but opens up reliably at distance
Interesting that you chose to quote 180gr bullets, when the thread is about 165gr bullets. Bullet length is critical to BC, and as bullets get longer a full boat tail is a larger factor in BC. So of course the lead nose full boat tail bullets catch up to the plastic tip semi boat tail bullets at maximum bullet lengths. Thus it's a bit disingenuous of you to quote 180gr bullet parameters to counter my assertion, which referenced 165gr bullets.
Not according to the bullet parameters on their websites:
Code:
.308" 165gr
Nosler BT .475
Interlock SPBT .435
Seirra GK SPBT .404
.308" 150gr
Nosler BT .435
Interlock SPBT .349
Seirra GK SPBT .380Sources:
Ballistic Tip - Nosler - Bullets, Ammunition, Rifles, Brass, Reloading Data, Hunting, Shooting, Reloading, Load Data
Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Bullets :: Rifle :: Choose by Caliber :: .308 30 CAL :: 30 Cal .308 165 gr InterLock® BTSP
Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Bullets :: Rifle :: Choose by Caliber :: .308 30 CAL :: 30 Cal .308 150 gr InterLock® BTSP
http://www.sierrabullets.com/bullets/BallisticCoefficient.pdf
150s and 165s are by far the most popular bullet weights fired through .308 and 30-06 tubes in North America. 180s in 308/30-06 are overkill for most anything but elk/moose, and have limited range due to low velocity. I've never hunted either, but if I did I'd leave the 150 BSTs at home and use 150gr Federal Trophy Copper (Barnes TTSX) for the superior penetration.
Of course not. Because most people simply don't have the required talent, practice, equipment, and/or training. But do note that this is the Longe Range Hunting forum. As such, it's assumed that individuals on this forum likely possess these prerequisites.
Long range doesn't necessarily correlate to an unethical kill. In my case it's just the opposite. In 25 years of white tail hunting all my 200+ yard shots (80%+ of my shots), have resulted in DRT kills. Converserly, I've had a number of animals get up or languish after a bad first off hand shot at 150 or less, often running. All were put down fairly quickly with a follow up shot.
I simply won't take a 200+ yard shot unless I'm able to deploy the bipod, and I rarely take such shots at running deer. The 400 yard doe kill was one of only a couple exceptoins. Wish I'd had that one on video--Nosler and Federal would have paid handsomly for that--a 400 yard kill on a doe moving at 20-25mph. Odds are I'll never have that opportunity again.
So in my case, all of my 'unethical' kills have been short range engagements, while all of my long range engagements have been single shot instant kills.
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
My longest off-hand kill is at over 700 yards with a 140 sierra pro-hunter flat base out of a 7rum. Don't kid yourself about lead-tipped bullets; they will do just fine and are usually more accurate to boot. I shoot what shoots accurately first and foremost. I also use a caliber that will push a bullet to 3300-3400fps for long range work.
If you can't get the accuracy you may as well wish the **** critter dead.
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
Take another look at the op's post before you toss any more comments out. The op wants a load that will work well from 50 to 400 yards, and in that range any bullet with a pointy tip will do well. The difference between the hornady and nos is only .04 bc anyway, which really isn't a hill of beans to 400 yards.
I've killed plenty of deer with the 165 hornady out of an '06, but have moved on to the 300 win and 300 rum( had 4 30-06 and got rid of all-- the last one lasted 1 month). I used the 165 hornady bt for my first mule deer buck kill at about 350 yards, so I have experience with actually killing something with the bullet, not just putting it down.
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
150s and 165s are by far the most popular bullet weights fired through .308 and 30-06 tubes in North America. 180s in 308/30-06 are overkill for most anything but elk/moose, and have limited range due to low velocity. I've never hunted either, but if I did I'd leave the 150 BSTs at home and use 150gr Federal Trophy Copper (Barnes TTSX) for the superior penetration.
Really... With any of the slower powders a 180 in any decent '06 is capable of 2700 fps, and if rl22 works for you you can hit 2800 fps. Been there and done that. You are within 100 fps of 165 grain bullets with rl22. There are plenty of long range rounds that toss their heavyweights to 2700-2800 fps, the 338 lapua comes to mind. Yes you are talking a .700+ bc in the lapua and in the neighborhood of .5 with a 180 bt in 30 cal.
Really... With any of the slower powders a 180 in any decent '06 is capable of 2700 fps, and if rl22 works for you you can hit 2800 fps. Been there and done that. You are within 100 fps of 165 grain bullets with rl22. There are plenty of long range rounds that toss their heavyweights to 2700-2800 fps, the 338 lapua comes to mind. Yes you are talking a .700+ bc in the lapua and in the neighborhood of .5 with a 180 bt in 30 cal.
Nomosendero
Well-Known Member
Maybe Mr. Litz can Chime in, he has good comparative data. One thing for sure, published data from the bullet compamies is a start, but sometimes we find out "real world" BC #'s can be different. I believe Mr. Litz says that Nosler badly over rates their #'s, but I could be wrong.
I use Plastic Tips more than any other type, along with some Bergers & a few lead tipped. But I am open and always looking, it appears maybe I have overlooked the Speer in the last 20 years or maybe they over rate too, I havn't tested them but plan to.
looks like you did not look at their 165, since you are comparing 165's. They show .520 which is higher than any you show. These guys in the following link think the # is real, again I don't know but I am ready to order some. Discussion Forums
I have shot four whitetails and one mule deer with my 308 MilSpec using 165 Ballistic Tips and Hornady 165 SST's. They were loaded to 2800FPS with 45.3 gr of Varget. All were shot in the heart lung area except for a very big bodied mulie which was shot right on the shoulder at 175 yards. The whitetails were shot between 200 and 560 yards. All wre dead in seconds or less. From a couple of recovered bullets, the SST's were perfect mushrooms with the base of the bullet pretty well intact. I didn't recover any BT's. Both bullets produce about the same accuracy of .25-.5 MOA with the BT's being slightly better than the SST's in my rifle. I like these bullets at 308/30-06 velocities at the longer ranges since I have seen the the heavier jacketed bullets lack expansion, and have a lower BC. Since the SST's were about half the price and came in boxes of 100 vs 50, I settled on the SST's. I have also used 150 gr SST's in my 270WSM loaded to 3100 FPS. They have a BC of .525, and have performed very well on deer sized game with the bullets holding together even at short range.
Joshuak12
Well-Known Member
Looks as though this discussion has, shall we say, evolved. All I have to throw in is that I missed ribs on a broadside doe at 95 yards last year with the Hornady SST and found very little blood and no deer, though I'm sure she was dead. I will be opting for the high neck shot if the same scenario presents itself again when I'm shooting SSTs.
My experiance was with factory ammo, Hornady 139gr SST "Superperformance". The Superperformance is loaded with some kind of faster burning powder to increase velocity. So reloaders useing the SST bullit and their own powder would have a differant result.
