History's Sniper show

[Boss Hoss]

Bingo!

P.S. Just watched another filming of the shot in which the sniper himself said, "it was a pretty lucky shot now that I look back at it". I guess that stupid sniper needs to go back and learn English with the rest of all the millions of dumb people who have ever said "lucky shot" because we're using the wrong word! Thanks Bill for enlightening a whole language. I'll make sure the next time I hear someone say, "that was a lucky shot" I will slap them on the wrist and tell them it's not lucky, it chance! Sheeeesh......

Hey as I said before ----- a lot of people here read too many magazines, watch too many movies because they are not cognizant of what it takes to make the shot our friend from Canada made. Great shot no doubt that required a tremendous amount of skill but the key in making a great shot is being able to recognize ones limitations as well as the factors that contribute to the establishment of said limitations.

For those who do understand the combined causal effect of the variables involved and the required mitigation that did not happen because of the lack of knowledge of those variables it cannot be explained any other way---luck was involved.

 

[Pdvdh]

I think Dirty Harry defined and used the word consistent with proper English language; Do you feel lucky, punk? I had no trouble understanding the meaning. I didn't have to look to Webster's dictionary. Talk about splitting hairs. How we've got so many people on tippy toes dancing around the use of the word luck escapes me. My guess is all the troops involved in the incident would agree it took some measure of luck, regardless of the set of skills they brought into play.

Drawing a line in the sand here and then defending it to the death over some aspect of luck in these ultra long range shots? Time to lighten up and enjoy the holidays. Luck doesn't mean GG or anyone else cursed the forces or disparaged the sniper(s) that made the kill. Luck is what it is. Not hard to understand. Nothing more. Nothing less. Make the shot 10 out of 10 attempts and I'll negate the luck factor. Make it one out of three, plus then the shooter himself acknowledges that luck played a role? End of story.

Now, I hope I get a chance to watch the feature. Especially if they interviewed Carlos Hathcock. I read a book called Marine Sniper once. If only half of what Hathcock was credited with in that book was true, that guy was unreal!

 

[john g duvall]

I think Dirty Harry defined and used the word consistent with proper English language; Do you feel lucky, punk? I had no trouble understanding the meaning. I didn't have to look to Webster's dictionary. Talk about splitting hairs. How we've got so many people on tippy toes dancing around the use of the word luck escapes me. My guess is all the troops involved in the incident would agree it took some measure of luck, regardless of the set of skills they brought into play.

Drawing a line in the sand here and then defending it to the death over some aspect of luck in these ultra long range shots? Time to lighten up and enjoy the holidays. Luck doesn't mean GG or anyone else cursed the forces or disparaged the sniper(s) that made the kill. Luck is what it is. Not hard to understand. Nothing more. Nothing less. Make the shot 10 out of 10 attempts and I'll negate the luck factor. Make it one out of three, plus then the shooter himself acknowledges that luck played a role? End of story.

Now, I hope I get a chance to watch the feature. Especially if they interviewed Carlos Hathcock. I read a book called Marine Sniper once. If only half of what Hathcock was credited with in that book was true, that guy was unreal!

He, Carlos Hathcock, was real until his untimely death a few years ago. Don't forget Chuck Mawhinney who in one night took out 16 NVA with 16 shots...confirmed. Chuck took out more NVA than any other sniper in the "Nam". Also don't forget John Plaster who took out a whole lot of NVA also. The list is endless of guys that did their job. www.ultimatesniper.com will give you the true stuff from a guy that did three tours in the Nam. His name is Maj. John L. Plaster (U.S. Army Special Forces Green Beret, Recon Team)

 

[goodgrouper]

Hey as I said before ----- a lot of people here read too many magazines, watch too many movies because they are not cognizant of what it takes to make the shot our friend from Canada made. Great shot no doubt that required a tremendous amount of skill but the key in making a great shot is being able to recognize ones limitations as well as the factors that contribute to the establishment of said limitations.

For those who do understand the combined causal effect of the variables involved and the required mitigation that did not happen because of the lack of knowledge of those variables it cannot be explained any other way---luck was involved.

You're absolutely right Boss. This isn't the first time we've dealt with this is it?

Hey, BTW, are you headed to Tucson next year for any comps? I heard they just upgraded the 1000 yard firing line and pits recently.

 

[goodgrouper]

I think Dirty Harry defined and used the word consistent with proper English language; Do you feel lucky, punk? !

Dirty Harry said a dirty word now didn't he?! HA!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Well in the season of good will... I hope everyone here gets 'lucky'.

Steve

 

[Buffalobob]

When it became clear to me that my son would follow down the same trail I had been down, I explained to him how to tell when he was being shot at by a sniper that was trying to get lucky and when by a sniper who was truly skillful for those situations that are commonly encountered such as supersonic and subsonic. This included how to stay alive and how and if you should try to kill the sniper.

Denigrating the skills of combat snipers as just a matter of luck is a choice you are free to make. However there is a reason why we celebrated Christmas today rather than Ramadan next month. Combat snipers do not earn HOF points. What they earn are:

 

[Boss Hoss]

Think you missed the point completely-----sorry.

 

[Pdvdh]

Well I miss sthe point also, because I don't recall any denigrating. All I recall is an accusation of denigrating.

Maybe you're referring to the Canadian sniper? He did say luck played a role in his long range kill. He must have come from a different school of sniper training.

 

[ATH]

It's a fallacy to think that saying there was some luck/chance involved in any way degrades the skill and dedication of our snipers. Let's say the rifle being shot was a .5 MOA rifle. This means that removing all input from the shooter, it's still going to throw roughly a 15-17 inch group at 2600m -- in other words, under the best of conditions, even ignoring wind (!!!) over a VERY long distance, some shots will hit and some will miss as this group is larger than the left-to-right target area on a man. So how is there not some luck/chance involved when one shot hits and another misses??

I think no one would deny the skill involved in getting very close on the first shot despite shooting new ammo, two-axis reticle hold-off, at altitude, at a walking target. I think it's pretty obvious that all of these things were also outside the parameters this sniper had practiced at, so his skills could not fully compensate for these multiple unknowns. THIS IS NO KNOCK ON THE SNIPER!!! This is not hunting, the only acceptable outcome is not a double lung shot. This is WAR, the goal is to prevent the bad guys from getting the good guys. A kill, a wounding, or sometimes getting close enough to keep their heads down, is good enough to call success. That is what this sniper was trying to do and he was successful at it.

I'm sure snipers take a ton of low-percentage shots that do not connect but help achieve an objective in one way or another. Again this is ok, it's not hunting ethics they are trying to live up to. They are not perfect, they are human.

Get over this fear of admitting there was some luck/chance involved because there was. Otherwise it wouldn't have taken 3 shots. Kudos to the sniper, for skillfully taking out a bad guy at an obscene range through a combination of amazing skill....and an element of luck. I find it just a bit absurd to assert there was no luck involved when he was shooting ammo totally different than what he had ever shot before. Somehow he magically knew how these rounds would perform well over a mile away??

 

[Boss Hoss]

ATH----agreed. Some people spend too much time reading internet boards, magazines and TV Shows rather than shooting and understanding what it takes to successfully deploy a long range rifle period end of story....

Just got back last night from Colorado where my Smith and I completed my latest long range rifle a 300 Jarrett.

 

[Buffalobob]

Some people spend too much time reading internet boards, magazines and TV Shows rather than shooting and understanding what it takes to successfully deploy a long range rifle period end of story....

So exactly where and when and with what unit were you deployed with a long range rifle.

 

[Boss Hoss]

So exactly where and when and with what unit were you deployed with a long range rifle.

I just deploy to the ranch to shoot long range 100, 300, 600, and 1250(very large hill used for back stop for 1250 hence the more than 1k) with gongs set up at 600 and 1250. Been shooting long range for 30 years and competing 1k for a few now. The rifles and ammunition used by me are superior to what the military has ------ only for the reason that my "match" rifles and "match" ammunition would not last 1 MINUTE in the field. If you would like we can discuss in finite detail.
Example I have a BAT that when it is dusty and windy will require cleaning to keep the bolt from binding on the line plus a 1oz trigger is tough to keep going in perfect conditions.

I have had several AI AWM's over the last 15 years and they shot great (had 2 with one shooting the 250 SMK and the other shooting the 185 Barnes)so you could say that I am familiar with the equipment. Oh yes sold my Stoner SR25's last spring when people were paying Stupid money for them LOL.

 

[Buffalobob]

Q.E.D.

Q.E.D. is an abbreviation of the Latin phrase quod erat demonstrandum, which literally means "which was to be demonstrated". The phrase is written in its abbreviated form at the end of a mathematical proof or philosophical argument to signify that the last statement deduced was the one to be demonstrated; the abbreviation thus signals the completion of the proof.