High Fence Hunting

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by buffalorancher, Aug 29, 2007.

  1. buffalorancher

    buffalorancher Writers Guild

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    I didn't want to turn Kirby's thread into something it shouldn't be so I thought I'd start a new thread on this subject. My screen name should give you a pretty good idea of what I do and the criticism of this type of hunting really bothers me. Hunters and gun owners in general seem to think highly of peoples rights so why would these same people question a land owners right to do what he wants within legal limits with his livestock. Sure, there can be questions aboout disease and impeded natural migration but for the most part this is private property with activities completely with in legal boundries. As a buffalo producer, I can see the next step after a domestic elk and deer hunting ban being some type of control being put on my "majestic" animals. Every time I hear somebody throw a coment about what they think about this type of hunting it bothers me because it is no different to me than the comments Jim Zumbo made.
    Lance
     
  2. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    IMO, I see no problem with it, but I don't think that animals shot on preserves belong in the B&C or Pope & Young record books.

    IMO right or wrong is in the eye of the beholder. After all, some folks decry woodchuck hunting since I don't keep the meat.....but I doubt that they will fork over their money to pay for an animal that breaks its leg in one of there holes!

    edge.
     

  3. buffalorancher

    buffalorancher Writers Guild

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    edge,
    I don't believe they should be included in a record book with free range animals but there is nothing wrong with recognizing them as confined.
    Lance
     
  4. NYLES

    NYLES Well-Known Member

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    I took a quick look at your website.......85,000 acres...not very confined to me. But only thing I didnt care for was the "Guaranteed shot" How do you guarantee a shot?

    By all means I agree with you on doing what you wish its your land! Also I see no problem with placing an animal killed in 85,000 acres placed in the books....confined? b&C p&y WHATS THE POINT? are people enjoying the tradition of hunting or keepin score? How can people judge the abilities of a hunter from lets say south Alabama to a hunter from northern Wisconsin based on the size animals he's taken? I dont care for the books!

    Buffalo with a bow that would be an awsome hunt!!!
     
  5. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    100% agree. Whatever folks want to set up as records is their business.

    Ol Hole in the Horns was found next to a railroad track. Should they be in a record book, sure. Just not in with others taken by hunters during "fair chase". I am not making judgements, just keeping with the rules as made the the folks that wrote them. There are "pick up" categories, and probably a whole bunch that I have never heard of.

    edge.
     
  6. buffalorancher

    buffalorancher Writers Guild

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    Nyles,
    I wrestled with the "guaranteed shot" thing but buffalo hunts are tough to book so your always trying something to make it work. I worry about my deer hunters coming for too many years in a row and they do start to wear on you, but buffalo hunters usually only shoot one so its a different deal. Most buffalo ranches are actually working ranches, albeit with varying levels of profitability, and these big bulls wear out their welcome and hunting is the best way to get rid of them. Some are fairly easy to get but we get mean ones too. I've had three close calls with clients that weren't Africa close but pretty close. Right now we have about 65 big bulls that are due for retirement but loading and shipping that many is a real nightmare. You can see why somebody telling us we have to beat the hell out of man and beast to get rid of them because "hunting" behind a fence isn't right.
    Lance
     
  7. blackco

    blackco Well-Known Member

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    I am with edge on this one. "Sporting" is in the eye of the beholder. THere is also numerous degrees of high-fence hunting. On one extreme there is the not so recent court case with a TV celebrity hunting deer in a fence so small they could not frame it out while filming the deer. On the other end; there is a fence all the way across Australia. With ocean on one side and a fence on the other it could be considered a high fence hunt, but NO ONE would consider hunting down under as un-sporting. I am cosidering hunting buffalo in the future and since I'm probably not lucky enough to get a tag in the Montana lotery or head to Utah for their hunt I will be hunting ranch buffalo. I have seen, and watched on TV, these hunts go from a cow shoot in a corral to a free range hunt on huge ranches.

    We could go on all day with what is and isn't sporting, I am glad that I don't have to address rules on wheather animals belong in the record books. I agree that animals shot in small enclosures should be excluded, but I have heard that some of the ranches in Africa are fenced. HUGE, but fenced. Where do you draw the line?
     
  8. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    This is always a heated topic and for good reason on both sides. I have a bit of personal experience with "High Fenced" hunts. I started going on a few about 8 years ago. These were pretty low priced and just a rancher that wanted to make some extra $$ so they pinned in an area and threw in some Russian boars.

    In every instance where I booked a hunt on one of these ranches we did alot of research to find out what type of place we were contracting with.

    In a couple instances, the hunting enclosures were not very large, 100 acres or so. In both instances, one for Russian bores, one for Exotic Sheep, I chose to use a traditional open sighted handgun for both because a rifle would simply have been a joke.

    My point is this, you can make of the hunt what you want. If you want to go sit in a 100 acre enclosure with a rifle and snipe things and feel good about it, by all means, that is up to you. To me that would not offer anything meaningful to me as the one taking the game. Put a 4 5/8" stainless, open sighted Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt in my hands and you have a totally different challange. Instead of being able to reach across the hunting enclosure with a rifle, now you are basically limited to traditional archery ranges with your shots, at least I am. 40 to 50 yards is all I will shoot with open sighted, short barreled revolvers.

    Now the easy thing becomes MUCH more challanging. To get a shot, you have to get close to animals that more then likely know your there and have played the game MANY more times they you have. If you take the same ethics into one of these hunts as you would to a wild game hunt, which you should, the challange grows even more.

    Simply put, if you want a challange, you can make it a challange by choosing what type of weapon you want to use.

    On other hunts the hunting enclosures were measured in square miles instead of acres. The first head of big game taken with the 257 AM and 270 AM were on private hunting ranches because I could get field test data 1/2 a year earlier then if I waited for general big game season.

    On those hunts, I was able to reach 500 yard across a big canyon and harvest a pure white Fallow buck that we had hunted for an entire morning without a glimpse of him. When he appeared across the canyon, he was in the exact same place we had been earlier that morning hunting for him. I am sure he was there when we were there, just held tight and did not move and was undetected.

    The elk hunt we just got back from was much more of a challange then I ever expected it to be.

    Cerrtainly there are game ranches that have no business being called hunting ranches because that is not what they are. Personally, if an animal has the ability to flee from me by means of cover or lay of the land or simply range, it is a form of free chase. If an animal does not have the ability to escape from my view, it is not something I have any desire to be a part of even if using traditional short range weapons.

    As far as the guaranteed shot thing. Well, I have talked to many ranch owners and while I do not want to brag or sound like I am bragging because I am certainly not but many of them have been pretty much speachless when they see some of the shots my family and I have made.

    I can remember one hunt we were on a group was leaving the morning we arrived. They had been boar hunting and were sitting around the breakfast table telling stories of their hunts. One guy was getting pretty hammered because he had used a 44 Mag revolver to try to take his bore. The story was he shot 14 times and only wounded the boar with one shot to the ham and the rifle had to be later killed with a rifle.

    Just because you will get a shot does not mean you will make the shot and for the general public, unfortuntely, the odds of missing or wounding an animal, in the wild or in a high fence area, are pretty high, the only benefit with high fence hunting is that the animals are generally recovered whereas wild came usually is wasted. That right there is a huge bonus point in favor of high fence hunting for most hunters. They may not think so but many once a year hunters would be far better off if they were limited to high fence hunting........

    Again, back to the guaranteed shot thing. I do alot of deer hunting from the end of October to the end of November. I shoot very little during that time and watch more then anything. When it comes time to take the shot, in my mind the hunt is over at that point. When I decide to get that game animal in the scope, I have not a doubt in my mind that my hunting season is over because I am sure the animal is dead, just not offical yet.

    Now yes I miss, we all do, but not much. The shooting of the game animal in my opinion is the easy part. Its finding the animal worthy of being taken that is the challange and that is determined by the goals you set prior to any hunt.

    Just like this elk hunt. The ranch owner told us if we worked hard enough and were able to pass on some REALLY big bulls, we should both leave with 400 class bulls, IF WE COULD SHOOT!!!! We can, we were patient, we put in our time and we went home with two 400 class bulls.

    Had we shot the first couple big bulls we saw we would have come home with two bulls in the 350 to 370" range.

    So again, the guaranteed shot thing does not bother me at all. Like Lance said, this is a business and as such you need a good advertising pitch, just because you will get a shot seldom means anything. I bet Lance could tell us some stories of shots that went bad with some of his customers. It happens but just because guaranteed shot is said, do not mistake that for saying, you will shoot at a critter tied up in the middle of a 5 acre pen.

    The animals on these ranches also need to be researched. Some ranches only kick out a few animals right before a hunter shows up. Then the ranch hands drive you all over hell making it look like you are really looking for the game and then drive you back to the hay bail where they dropped the critter off the night before.

    Other places, like the ranch we hunted in Nebraska, the bulls have been together in these hunting areas since they were taken off their mothers as yearlings. They have been in that hunting enclosure for 7 to 8 years for the older bulls. They have seen alot of hunters, as buffalo, fallow deer, exotic sheep, Sitka deer and several other speicies are all hunted in the same area.

    My biggest complaint which has been mantioned already is when someone takes an animal off a hunting ranch but then tried to claim it was a wild animal because they are so ego bound they need that attention. That really upsets me.

    There are records for hunting ranches. Saffari Club International has "estate" catagories for nearly all of their speicies listed. They also have "free Range" listings as well.

    As long as we are honest, I see no problem at all with these ranches and have spent some very enjoyable times in the field on these hunts. Is a 466" SCI bull in the same class as a 400" B&C bull, certainly not, but they are both amazing animals in their own right and memories would be made with either if hunted correctly and honestly.

    I have no problem with high fence hunting. Sadly enough, if you hunt in Texas and do not think you are high fence hunting, in most cases you would be wrong!!!! Even if your hunting "native" game as nearly every Texas ranch is surrounded by high fence.

    Just my long winded opinion.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  9. lazylabs

    lazylabs Well-Known Member

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    I think that in the end fenced hunting will be banned. It's not because of sporting or ethics at all. The states don't make as much money off of it so it will be banned. I am not sure about the "books" it's really not that much different than a 60000 acre leased ranch with free range animals that have never been hunted and shot out of a truck. The people that want to buy thier way into the record books will. The people that want to work thier butts off to shoot anything legal will. It's too tiresome to worry about the other guy. The only gripe I really have is the ranches that only allow a couple high paying hunters on a huge ranch and then complain and ask for payment from the FWP for crop damage.
     
  10. NYLES

    NYLES Well-Known Member

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    Kirby says it very well again....the choice of weapon can make or break the "sporting, fare chase" of a hunt........You like that 45 colt dontcha?
     
  11. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    I really see no difference in a high fence hunt and the people who use timed feeders for deer or hogs in their back forty. On a large ranch the animals are not really confined to the point you can just walk out and shoot one. And some of them are unbelievably spooky from being shot at frequently. The animals learn when the timer goes off and all the squirrels and grain eating critters come and wait for the dinner bell.

    If you are short on time or money and cannot afford to spend months scouting elk or thousands of dollars flying to Africa or wherever then the high fence hunts are your best option. My son can’t take off from school and spend months bumming around with me hunting so the high fence hunt was a good opportunity for him to kill a unique animal and he was very happy with it. I had never killed a hog and so the high fence hunt was a good thing for me and him


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    On the other hand, I spent a lot of time money and effort to kill a six by six that scored only 297 points. But the time sweat and effort I put into it and difficulty of hunting on public land made that elk the trophy of a life time for me. I am not the least bit envious of anyone’s elk rack because I know that even if I should kill one bigger than the one I have it will not mean as much to me. A trophy to me is the memories of the hunt itself.

    As far as shooting buffalo, I would just say that a wild buffalo is not a spooky critter. You can walk up to him and cheek his teeth and peer into his ears and he will not run off. They are big and they do not fall over very easily and that is about all a person can say about buffalo hunting. A buffalo just doesn’t act like other wild animals. They do not play hide and seek and they are not afraid of you.
     
  12. Boss Hoss

    Boss Hoss Well-Known Member

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    My opinion on this one is very short and to the point. I will not and have not ever hunted high fence. On the other hand we hunt on the ranch and the only fences we have are the 5 and 7 strand barbed wire type. I am not against people who want to spend the money to be driven around, placed in front of an animal and told it is a good one so shoot it. Some consider that hunting and so be it just don’t try and sell it to me because I find it not sporting personally, but to each his or her own. There is a reason why animals from high fence areas are not allowed to make “book” it is not fair chase plain and simple no matter what the size of the pen.
     
  13. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    Do you call what you do "fair chase"? Do the animals ever shoot back? Any of them carry AK-47s or RPGs?
     
  14. Boss Hoss

    Boss Hoss Well-Known Member

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    Yes the indigenous wildlife just jump over them or go under---they are to keep cows in you know where steaks come from but they are gone now. 100% wildlife management area.

    Hey I don't define fair chase that is for Boone and Crockett to do and they consider cattle fences fair chase.

    This per Boone and Crockett----FAIR CHASE STATEMENT
    FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.

    This per Boone and Crockett on “high fence hunting” ---- Unethical “Canned” Shooting (Improperly referred to as “canned” hunting.)
    The Boone and Crockett Club condemns the pursuit and killing of any big game animal kept in or released from captivity to be killed in an artificial or bogus “hunting” situation where the game lacks the equivalent chance to escape afforded free-ranging animals, virtually assuring the shooter a certain or unrealistically favorable chance of a kill