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Reloading
Help With Boattail Bullets
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<blockquote data-quote="eshell" data-source="post: 172891" data-attributes="member: 5747"><p>Howdy Boss Hoss. I am sorry if you have taken my comments above personally.</p><p></p><p>First, my own first hand experience with match grade and benchrest quality custom rifles has proved to me that it is very simply NOT indisputable fact that all boat tail bullets are inherently inaccurate at ranges inside the magical 300 yards cited.</p><p></p><p>I have already stated this above, and given examples of no less than four custom rifles I currently own that shoot well with boattails at any given range. This personal experience in itself is enough for me to respectfully disagree with your absolute and all-inclusive statement.</p><p></p><p>Will they compete with a fresh 6PPC at 100 or even 200? No, but not many rifles will, bullet choice notwithstanding. All rifles mentioned above are indeed capable of turning in 1/4 moa groups with boattails, though.</p><p></p><p>Regarding the in-bore yaw as my reasoning for this, a series of articles in Precision Shooting magazine that have appeared over the last year or so discussed in-depth the throat geometry information I cite, replete with drawings demonstrating the mechanism. The articles had made many things that had been rather difficult for me to understand suddenly quite clear, especially why a couple of my rifles will NOT shoot Bergers inside of 1-1/2" at 100 yards, yet drive Nosler BTs into 1/2" groups at the same range.</p><p></p><p>Further, I had a series of e-mail exchanges with Mr. Walt Berger regarding this phenomenon and he suggests throat geometry is a major factor as well. I doubt Mr. Berger would agree his bullets will not shoot well at any certain range, and the fact that I was doing my preliminary accuracy testing at 100 yards was not an issue.</p><p></p><p>As my 6.5-300 throat was going, I experimented with it, trying to keep what accuracy I could before tying it up at the 'smith's for the couple months a re-work takes. It quit shooting Bergers, then quit shooting Scenars, then quit shoot Nosler BTs. By "quit", I mean accuracy went to over 1/2 moa. This pattern, taken with the information gleaned from the article, focused it quite crisply.</p><p></p><p>The statements I made above, regarding moly coating vs quicker stabilization/less in-bore yaw, is taken from the same series of articles, and I regret I was unable to play with any of my rifles enough to get a feel for it myself. The best I could do was take my well-worn 6.5-284, which had had 800 moly 142 SMKs through it at that time and try both uncoated 142s and Berger 140s and all I could really prove is that neither shot as well as the moly'ed bullets. I felt that there were too many factors to draw any conclusions from this, including the moly deposited in the bore that would not seem to completely come out. The case made for moly helping to make the best of a bad situation is compelling enough to cite it here as a possible solution. This rifle has since been rebarreled, but I plan not to waste my time with moly, as it has not proved itself to me to be worth the hassles in a correctly chambered rifle.</p><p></p><p>Taken with the rest of the author's experiments and assertions and the logic behind it, it makes perfect sense to me that this "going to sleep" had a scientific reason behind it that could be influenced by changing throat geometry and was not the "fault" of any given bullet design.</p><p></p><p>There has never been any truly scientific evidence that any sort of bullets produced tighter groups at longer ranges, nor any solid reason to think a certain type of bullet has some weird aerodynamics that prevented accurate shooting at closer ranges. After reading this and fooling with it some, I feel that my confusion about "why" of some of this stuff is "so" was gone and it was enough to cause me to quit parroting the same rather old info about boattails being unstable at close range just because they were boattails, *especially* when it does not happen with all rifles. The minute it cannot be repeated in even ONE gun, it's just not "true".</p><p></p><p>Regarding the carbon ring, I do understand your point about "proper care" and insinuated neglect, and I do understand bore cleaning as well as the next guy, however, these HUGE doses of slow powder in the 6.5 bore are quite another animal and no amount of scrubbing, even with JB, would touch it.</p><p></p><p>I cleaned the rifle religiously every time out, with **no more** than 20-30 rounds passing between cleanings, using customary techniques and for all practical purposes, it was "clean". It was not visible to the naked eye. Sweets patches came back white. JB just made it shiny. Regrettably, I do not (yet) own a bore scope, or this problem may have become apparent sooner, but as it was, the carbon and deterrents accumulated to a point of affect performance before I understood it's nature and presence.</p><p></p><p>I would be interested in your friend's take on this new information and would encourage you to check into it also - it opened my eyes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="eshell, post: 172891, member: 5747"] Howdy Boss Hoss. I am sorry if you have taken my comments above personally. First, my own first hand experience with match grade and benchrest quality custom rifles has proved to me that it is very simply NOT indisputable fact that all boat tail bullets are inherently inaccurate at ranges inside the magical 300 yards cited. I have already stated this above, and given examples of no less than four custom rifles I currently own that shoot well with boattails at any given range. This personal experience in itself is enough for me to respectfully disagree with your absolute and all-inclusive statement. Will they compete with a fresh 6PPC at 100 or even 200? No, but not many rifles will, bullet choice notwithstanding. All rifles mentioned above are indeed capable of turning in 1/4 moa groups with boattails, though. Regarding the in-bore yaw as my reasoning for this, a series of articles in Precision Shooting magazine that have appeared over the last year or so discussed in-depth the throat geometry information I cite, replete with drawings demonstrating the mechanism. The articles had made many things that had been rather difficult for me to understand suddenly quite clear, especially why a couple of my rifles will NOT shoot Bergers inside of 1-1/2" at 100 yards, yet drive Nosler BTs into 1/2" groups at the same range. Further, I had a series of e-mail exchanges with Mr. Walt Berger regarding this phenomenon and he suggests throat geometry is a major factor as well. I doubt Mr. Berger would agree his bullets will not shoot well at any certain range, and the fact that I was doing my preliminary accuracy testing at 100 yards was not an issue. As my 6.5-300 throat was going, I experimented with it, trying to keep what accuracy I could before tying it up at the 'smith's for the couple months a re-work takes. It quit shooting Bergers, then quit shooting Scenars, then quit shoot Nosler BTs. By "quit", I mean accuracy went to over 1/2 moa. This pattern, taken with the information gleaned from the article, focused it quite crisply. The statements I made above, regarding moly coating vs quicker stabilization/less in-bore yaw, is taken from the same series of articles, and I regret I was unable to play with any of my rifles enough to get a feel for it myself. The best I could do was take my well-worn 6.5-284, which had had 800 moly 142 SMKs through it at that time and try both uncoated 142s and Berger 140s and all I could really prove is that neither shot as well as the moly'ed bullets. I felt that there were too many factors to draw any conclusions from this, including the moly deposited in the bore that would not seem to completely come out. The case made for moly helping to make the best of a bad situation is compelling enough to cite it here as a possible solution. This rifle has since been rebarreled, but I plan not to waste my time with moly, as it has not proved itself to me to be worth the hassles in a correctly chambered rifle. Taken with the rest of the author's experiments and assertions and the logic behind it, it makes perfect sense to me that this "going to sleep" had a scientific reason behind it that could be influenced by changing throat geometry and was not the "fault" of any given bullet design. There has never been any truly scientific evidence that any sort of bullets produced tighter groups at longer ranges, nor any solid reason to think a certain type of bullet has some weird aerodynamics that prevented accurate shooting at closer ranges. After reading this and fooling with it some, I feel that my confusion about "why" of some of this stuff is "so" was gone and it was enough to cause me to quit parroting the same rather old info about boattails being unstable at close range just because they were boattails, *especially* when it does not happen with all rifles. The minute it cannot be repeated in even ONE gun, it's just not "true". Regarding the carbon ring, I do understand your point about "proper care" and insinuated neglect, and I do understand bore cleaning as well as the next guy, however, these HUGE doses of slow powder in the 6.5 bore are quite another animal and no amount of scrubbing, even with JB, would touch it. I cleaned the rifle religiously every time out, with **no more** than 20-30 rounds passing between cleanings, using customary techniques and for all practical purposes, it was "clean". It was not visible to the naked eye. Sweets patches came back white. JB just made it shiny. Regrettably, I do not (yet) own a bore scope, or this problem may have become apparent sooner, but as it was, the carbon and deterrents accumulated to a point of affect performance before I understood it's nature and presence. I would be interested in your friend's take on this new information and would encourage you to check into it also - it opened my eyes. [/QUOTE]
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