Broz
Well-Known Member
Oh, another thing I learned today. Phorwath makes really wide posts..
Jeff
Jeff
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Help Needed with LB3.0 and .338 Bergers
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bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Broz, did you get the full version of Loadbase3.0 or just the PPC version?
Broz
Well-Known Member
I bought both. I haven't yet used the desk top version. I want to do all I can on the Pda to get use to it.
Jeff
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
You'll love the desktop version for laying out several sets of data and comparing them side by side in graph form. The best thing is you can just sync your PPC to you desktop and vic versa, you won't have to re enter all the data.
I get things ironed out on the desktop then sync to the PPC so I don't have to flip back and forth. Like with your problem you can lay out three of the same track but change the MV by 5FPS and graph it then see what fits your trajectory better.
I use the Logbook portion to track my info, the coolest thing is I scan in a target then measure it and add info to the pic with the On Target program and then upload it into Loadbase so I have a scale pic of my target in the data base!
There are so many tools you can scramble your brains
I get things ironed out on the desktop then sync to the PPC so I don't have to flip back and forth. Like with your problem you can lay out three of the same track but change the MV by 5FPS and graph it then see what fits your trajectory better.
I use the Logbook portion to track my info, the coolest thing is I scan in a target then measure it and add info to the pic with the On Target program and then upload it into Loadbase so I have a scale pic of my target in the data base!
There are so many tools you can scramble your brains
Oh, another thing I learned today. Phorwath makes really wide posts..
Jeff
Hah!!!
I don't know what's up with that. I thought the wide posts began with bigbuck! I was gonna blame him. But maybe it is me.
If Len or someone else can let me know if I'm the culprit, I'll try to reduce the width of my presence. It's for sure a nuisance to have to scroll across to view the posts. Maybe this is how Len's telling me I'm getting to be a bit on the wide side!
Re: More Chronograph Stuff
The best way to learn about chronograph capabilities is to run two in tandem. Without that, there is really no way to judge or critique performance. No different than having a single gauge or instrument of most any type. If there's not a second source of data capable of measuring the information that cannot otherwise be sensed by the five human senses, then there's no ability or basis for analysis, interpretation, or validation of the data. My eyes were opened when I began running two at the same time. Over time, I've been able to gain insights on the performance of my two units; and confidence interpretating the data. For example, I'm very confident in the ability to ID flawed data points, simply based on the difference of velocity reported by the two units. Every bullet goes over each unit's skyscreens. Any deviation from typical velocity differences between the two units means one or both units choked. Both units rarely choke at the same time. I only remember one instance - when I switched from an un-braked rifle to a braked rifle. The units were too close to the muzzle blast and both spit out grossly incorrect velocities.
With only a single chronograph, you could be collecting good data or bad data. Take your pick. Because there's really nothing else one can do when limited to a sole source of data.
Broz,
Let us know what your MV is if you're able to shoot over an Oehler? It's probably higher (right where you expected it to be) and the Berger BC is probably lower than initially advertised. Bryan - being an engineer and scientist sort of guy - probably repeated his BC testing every which way, to the point of overkill, prior to releasing the revised .338 Hybrid BC. No way he wants to end up in the position of having to correct a correction with a 2nd notification/update.
I let a guy shoot over my chronographs twice after he'd fired 50 rounds over his brand new Shooting Chrony about 2 months ago, as a point of curiousity - he wanted to see how the data from his unit compared to velocity recorded with mine. The two shots he fired over my units were within the range of the 50 MVs he had collected over his. Nothing too scientific, but his Shooting Chrony data seemed reasonable.
By the time I develop a load over chronographs and am prepared to move out to 1000 yds, I have sufficient MV data, no matter the different day-to-day lighting conditions, to establish a very representative average MV value. I often even have a pretty good feel of the temperature sensitivity of the load. It's easy to set the units up during load development where I conduct load development (although I'm sure that will not be the case for everyone). Takes an extra 10-15 minutes to set up and take down.
The best way to learn about chronograph capabilities is to run two in tandem. Without that, there is really no way to judge or critique performance. No different than having a single gauge or instrument of most any type. If there's not a second source of data capable of measuring the information that cannot otherwise be sensed by the five human senses, then there's no ability or basis for analysis, interpretation, or validation of the data. My eyes were opened when I began running two at the same time. Over time, I've been able to gain insights on the performance of my two units; and confidence interpretating the data. For example, I'm very confident in the ability to ID flawed data points, simply based on the difference of velocity reported by the two units. Every bullet goes over each unit's skyscreens. Any deviation from typical velocity differences between the two units means one or both units choked. Both units rarely choke at the same time. I only remember one instance - when I switched from an un-braked rifle to a braked rifle. The units were too close to the muzzle blast and both spit out grossly incorrect velocities.
With only a single chronograph, you could be collecting good data or bad data. Take your pick. Because there's really nothing else one can do when limited to a sole source of data.
Broz,
Let us know what your MV is if you're able to shoot over an Oehler? It's probably higher (right where you expected it to be) and the Berger BC is probably lower than initially advertised. Bryan - being an engineer and scientist sort of guy - probably repeated his BC testing every which way, to the point of overkill, prior to releasing the revised .338 Hybrid BC. No way he wants to end up in the position of having to correct a correction with a 2nd notification/update.
I let a guy shoot over my chronographs twice after he'd fired 50 rounds over his brand new Shooting Chrony about 2 months ago, as a point of curiousity - he wanted to see how the data from his unit compared to velocity recorded with mine. The two shots he fired over my units were within the range of the 50 MVs he had collected over his. Nothing too scientific, but his Shooting Chrony data seemed reasonable.
By the time I develop a load over chronographs and am prepared to move out to 1000 yds, I have sufficient MV data, no matter the different day-to-day lighting conditions, to establish a very representative average MV value. I often even have a pretty good feel of the temperature sensitivity of the load. It's easy to set the units up during load development where I conduct load development (although I'm sure that will not be the case for everyone). Takes an extra 10-15 minutes to set up and take down.
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My friend, you don't have to worry about that. When you write something I wan to read it, you say what you say and don't beat around the bush. I like that. Straight forward. There's a bunch to learn from you and when we look at something a little different is just like two great friend being friends. Your character is very good in my book! Thank you for being one of us.
Broz,
Good shooting as always. You and phorwarh are in danger of being used by the sniper team... lightbulb
I thought after your comments, if the wind was really coming on 45° it's easy to do key it in in LoadBase's format. How would we key it in in the Clock format? Would it be 1.5? Exbal does let you punch in 1.5.... just thinking aloud!
Running to scare off the Elk before you shoot????????????????????? Man Broz
life really smiles at you!
Glad for you!
Good shooting as always. You and phorwarh are in danger of being used by the sniper team... lightbulb
I thought after your comments, if the wind was really coming on 45° it's easy to do key it in in LoadBase's format. How would we key it in in the Clock format? Would it be 1.5? Exbal does let you punch in 1.5.... just thinking aloud!
Running to scare off the Elk before you shoot????????????????????? Man Broz
life really smiles at you!
Glad for you!
Broz
Well-Known Member
More data.... After shooting the group at 1182 yards this morning and it being high. I simply raised my MV to 2780. Again I feel this is close due to tha fact the 300 smk chronoed at 2850 and matched exbal dial ups at 2805. Remember the chrono I have proven to be fast by 30 to 40 fps. So I feel the 1 gr reduced charge with the bergers that chronos at 2820 should be in the 2780 area.
All that said, and new sight in data of 2780 MV, DC .495, G7 BC .419. I just went out to shoot before dark.
Entered field conditions and engauged the 1395 target for a cold bore shot. With Coriolis entered and on, no spin drift or windage adjustment was made, LB called for 36.1moa up. I dialed 36.0 and shot once. Pic below. I then engauged a target at 995 yards. I shot 3 into a 4" group that was about 6" high. LB called for 20.4 and I used 20.5 So, I feel, the program is a bit high with mv of 2780. It seems I need to raise the mv a bit more, will keep adjusting.
Coments???
Jeff
After shooting the group at 1182 yards this morning and it being high. I simply raised my MV to 2780. Again I feel this is close due to tha fact the 300 smk chronoed at 2850 and matched exbal dial ups at 2805. Remember the chrono I have proven to be fast by 30 to 40 fps. So I feel the 1 gr reduced charge with the bergers that chronos at 2820 should be in the 2780 area.All that said, and new sight in data of 2780 MV, DC .495, G7 BC .419. I just went out to shoot before dark.
Entered field conditions and engauged the 1395 target for a cold bore shot. With Coriolis entered and on, no spin drift or windage adjustment was made, LB called for 36.1moa up. I dialed 36.0 and shot once. Pic below. I then engauged a target at 995 yards. I shot 3 into a 4" group that was about 6" high. LB called for 20.4 and I used 20.5 So, I feel, the program is a bit high with mv of 2780. It seems I need to raise the mv a bit more, will keep adjusting.
Coments???
Jeff
Yes, it's in inches... sorry friend! and you stated your barrel length right, latter I remembered I messed up.
I enjoyed reading your last post. I'm really hoping this is going to work for you great. When you use a DC (Drag Coefficient) greater than 10, it places a lot of doubt on the bullet's BC; as you can see we're looking good there.
CORRECTION: "The greater than 10 above is wrong" it should say: a DC change Greater than ±10% of 0.500
Enjoy!!!
You all deserve that I be more specific in this explanation.
DC (Drag Coefficient) is a good indicator of the quality of the BC (Ballistic Coefficient).
The BC determines the drag curve shape.
The DC models that curve for utmost accuracy.
Nothing can be done if the BC is wrong!
Now, ±10% of 0.500 -----> (10*0.500)/100 = ±0.05 -------> boils down to this:
If the DC used is outside of [-0.450 to +0.550] it places a lot of doubts on the accuracy of the given BC.
This is important info and we should keep it in mind!
Thanks!
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Broz
Well-Known Member
Eaglet, So if I am a good 6" high at 995 yards, and pretty much on at 1395, but you can see it is maybe 2" high also. What would you adjust of these three?
MV=2780
DC=.495
G7 BC= .419
??
( I know if I would have shot a group ay 1395 it would have been all over the 7" orange circle but I am getting close so I want to start my favorite practise, 1 cold bore shot)
MV=2780
DC=.495
G7 BC= .419
??
( I know if I would have shot a group ay 1395 it would have been all over the 7" orange circle but I am getting close so I want to start my favorite practise, 1 cold bore shot)
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Those elk had better get the hint, they are not safe!!! You can maybe bring up the DC to .500 also, Phorwath has proven that with Litz's G7 data the .500 is very accurate. It's kinda funny that after all this furious numbers crunching that you'll end up back where you have thought all along. Goes to show that the more you shoot the more refined the data becomes and the better dope you get!
Would it make sense if you shoot at three different ranges and the center is the high point to raise the BC but lower the MV to put less of an arc in the trajectory while staying at the same POI. Maybe?
It seems the the mid range has been a little high but you can get very close on the closer targets and the longer targets.
You can maybe bring up the DC to .500 also, Phorwath has proven that with Litz's G7 data the .500 is very accurate. It's kinda funny that after all this furious numbers crunching that you'll end up back where you have thought all along. Goes to show that the more you shoot the more refined the data becomes and the better dope you get!Would it make sense if you shoot at three different ranges and the center is the high point to raise the BC but lower the MV to put less of an arc in the trajectory while staying at the same POI. Maybe?
It seems the the mid range has been a little high but you can get very close on the closer targets and the longer targets.
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