Help my Dads recipe

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Strick9, May 26, 2008.

  1. Strick9

    Strick9 Well-Known Member

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    I am taking my father on his first elk trip this Nov. He used to be a very serious and avid reloader back in the late 70s and developed a load for his 7mm weathery mag, consisting of 162grn Hornandy bthp match bc=.534, using 57 grns Imr 4350 and cci magnum 250 primers. Oal=3.360 .The rifle is a 1970s model Weatherby Mark 5, 1:10 twist with there smallest diameter sporter barrel..26 inch. It grouped in the .5-.75 @100yds.His only concern was the watermelon sized hole it left in the one and only deer he took with this particular load. I happen to like that idea just don't shoot the shoulder direct.

    Any how he still has 50 of these bullets and we reset up his work station today for him. Anyone have a close number on Mv( he never chronod, to poor back in the 70s) at @4000 elev 50% humidity and 50 degrees f? We want to develop a drop chart out to 800 for him.
    Also anyone used a similar set up on elk and muleys?
    Kind Regards
     
  2. ackleyfan

    ackleyfan Well-Known Member

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    Bullet choice!

    I would change your choice of bullets in your recipie use a premium hunting bullet that is designed for elk size game,I don't think a BTHP match bullet is a good choice for heavy boned elk! A better choice would be ,Nosler Accubonds, Etips,or Barnes TTSX's! Have fun on your hunt!!
     

  3. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Strick9,


    That bullet must be chugging along as 58gr IMR 4350 in a my 270 Win and a 140 gr bullet produces 3190 so I'd "guess" that with the extra weight and diameter and a self generated fudge factor:rolleyes: the 162 is right around 3000.

    If a chrono is needed I can ship you a loaner. And it works. In fact I'm going to use it today for a experiment I'm working on.

    I really like those pencil barrelled weatherbys. Shot one in 300 and one in 240 for what was then long range chucks. Pretty sweet.

    BTW, take the shot just behind the should joint and hope a small branch is hit about a foot before the animal. Nothing better on an elk than a watermellon sized hole on both sides;) Just don't hit the good meat.:eek:
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2008
  4. johnnyk

    johnnyk Well-Known Member

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    Using the 160gn Partition and/or AccuBond the Nosler Reloading Guide #6 has;
    60.0 = 2858fps (78%),
    62.0 = 2943fps (81%),
    64.0 = 3028fps (84%).
    I guess it's OK to go below the minimum powder listing. Never done that before. I have on occasion gone over the listed max. JohnnyK.
     
  5. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    Acklyfan gave you good advice. JohnnyK gave you relevant data I simply do not understand why some people run their mouth about stuff they don't know anything about. Advising a person to use this bullet on elk is unbelievably bad advice.

    I was shooting a 7mm Wby in the 1970s using IMR4350, Rem 9 1/2Ms and the Hornady 162HPBT match bullet which actually has a BC of 0.625. I ran nearly 20% more powder in the case and the primers would flow into the starting lip of the pocket.

    In 1979 I ran a number of penetration tests in newspaper comparing the 162 HPBT to the 168 Sierra MK and the 160 Nosler partition. It was the first time in my life I had performed penetration tests and I recorded the results but had little knowledge of their real meaning. I learned their true meaning after having shot two animals.

    The first animal I shot was a spike elk at 1100 yards. The bullet landed on his shoulder blade and did not break it. It simply made a little puff of dust on his shoulder blade and I watched as he trotted across 300 yards of clearing. We tracked him the next morning and the bullet simply never made it into his chest cavity and he never died. This was not even a big spike elk but just a little one and the bullet would not break the shoulder blade nor go through it.

    Two weeks later I set up with my friend to kill a mule deer at long range but they appeared right under our ledge at 50 yards. We each fired at a buck and I hit a 3X3 right in the shoulder blade and the bullet created a watermelon sized crater on the shoulder blade but did not get into the chest cavity and the deer got up and ran off. After a half a mile of tracking my friend spotted it and killed it on the run with his 7 Rem mag and a 140 gr Speer BT.

    My experience with this particular bullet is just the same as your Dad's. It is extremely explosive and has no ability to penetrate and break bones. It is remarkably accurate and that lures you into shooting it. Most likely your Dad backed the load down low to get a reduced speed at which the bullet did not explode on the hide. You are probably in the 2700 fps range of velocity. I was running about 3100 to 3200 fps. Get a better bullet. And I believe I already told you once not to be contradicting your Dad because he has a lot of good sense. What have you gotten him for fathers day?

    Go with something like the 180 Berger which has good sectional density.

    Take the 50 bullet left and offer them for sale. The Pa longrange whitetail hunters like them because they work well on a little chihuahua sized whitetails we hunt which have fragile bones.
     
  6. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Oh Well. Some days chickens. Some days feathers.

    However, I do think that if you put your shot, even with that suspect bullet in the number one spot, on the animal it should do at least what a 223, 70 gr bullet launched at 2600 did and that's kill the elk. Although the shot was only 120 yards.

    Seeing as how the option for other bullets has been opened why not consider a different cartridge say something in 338 Weatherby or some such. Then the high shoulder shot may be more appropriate.;)

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    At the velocity your Dad will be at with his 7mm Wby, I would say the 160 gr Accubond may be the perfect bullet for his rifle for anything up to elk. At close range, the heavy jacket and bonded core will generally outpenetrate the Partition of same weight and caliber. I have seen this in several calibers and bullet weights and in every case, the Accubond penetrated better.

    Also, they generally shoot more accurate then the partition. THey will also have less drop and less wind drift.

    At long range where velocity has dropped off, the tip on the Accubond will initate expansion MUCH more reliably then any non tipped bullet, even soft points.

    In my opinion, seeing how the Accubonds perform, they pretty much make the parition obsolete in many aspects. That is if your rifle likes them. They are this good and for less money then the Paritions.

    Other premium bullets such as the TSX and those from Swift will also work well but they have issues that the Accubond does not have. For all around use, I could think of no better bullet then the 160 gr Accubond in your Dads rifle.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  8. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    Roy, an elk hunting trip may cost thousands of dollars and for somebody to just run their mouth about bullets they have never fired, on an animal they have never killed is a disservice.

    The 160 AB shot very accurately in my 7mm Wby out to 1K in my testing. I only killed one deer with it but it was close and the bullet performed well breaking a lot of bones and exiting still in one piece. I loaded it up for elk and developed a drop chart but Kirby got my new rifle ready so the 7mm Wby got left at home and never went elk hunting again..

    The only thing about loading the 160AB is that because the jacket and core are tough and the bearing surface is long, pressures will rise faster than other 160 grain bullets. The long bearing surface seems to help them jump down the long freebore well though.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2008
  9. Strick9

    Strick9 Well-Known Member

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    Guys, this is only the load we do not have MV for, I should have mentioned he is also loading some old A Frames and some accubonds in 160 but he says he has the MV for those and due to BC differences was just curious if I could find anyone with a very close guess..

    RoyinIdaho thanks for the offer on the chrono, we are guessing right around 2900-3010 .We were just wanting to develop some drop charts and see what did what...I however believe that the bthp 162 grn would do an elk in a heartbeat when properly placed. However don't think it would be my first choice either.

    Kirby, thankyou for your input I take your comments very heavy and have to say I agree on the accubond. I have had very little tracking to do with them.

    BuffaloBob, If that deer was taken at 200 plus ignore this, probably nothing you are not aware of but if you move your shot placement away from shoulder blades, I prefer about 3 inches back from your pic above and about 2 inches higher, (wish I could allways pull this off) ,this will send the projectile into the point at which the bronchial tubes insert into the upper and lower lobes and also the pulmanary artery creating massive trauma without all the damage...the lower shoulder is great in roasts and hamburger also you don't have to contend with the bone fragments in your upper shoulder roast. If properly thought out and performed you even get the Oh So Delicious undamaged fried heart slices..

    Thankyou for the meaningful and informative comments.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2008
  10. jwp475

    jwp475 Well-Known Member

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    Apparently you feel that only perfectly executed shot will always take place. Interesting concept, I find it easier to chose a bullet that allows for human error on occasion.
     
  11. Strick9

    Strick9 Well-Known Member

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    Apparently you didn't read my post and notice where I said "( Wish I could allways pull this off)" No nead for sarcasm and negativity in this post.
     
  12. jwp475

    jwp475 Well-Known Member

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    You are correct I have missed that part of the post


     
  13. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    The Hornady Loading manual lists the loads for the 162 HPBT with IMR 4350 for the 7mm Wby. There is no need to guess. You are definitely under 2800 fps.

    As far as shot placement on a moving whitetail in the woods shooting offhand, that is about as good as I can do. I never claim to be a great shot so I just do the best I can and that is about the best I can do. A well constructed bullet provides forgiveness on shot placement. That is why I threw away all the 162 HPBTs, I could not keep them from drifting into the shoulder bones of elk at 1100 yards when the evening thermal winds started up. But if you are better than me that is fine. Many people are. I shot with a guy on Sunday who was and I was happy for him.
     
  14. Strick9

    Strick9 Well-Known Member

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    Then I have to say great shot if he was on the run, my facts above obviously apply only to game which presents the still very slightly quartering or full broadside shot, this is the only shot I happen to feel comfortable with..Somedays I can shoot with the pros others well a VW bug would be quite safe...
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2008