Heavy Bullets!

[RockyMtnMT]

I think the thing that has been missed on the bc issue is that the weight of the bullet is part of the bc calculation. The aluminum ball and lead ball of the same exact dimensions for example. The lead ball will have a higher bc because it is heavier. Thus it will have less wind drift.

You can have a lighter bullet of same caliber with higher bc because of form. The lighter bullet with better form will have less wind drift, at all distances, than the heavier one even if they are driven at the same velocity. Now we all know that we can drive the better form lighter weight bullet faster than the heavier one of lesser form which will make the performance difference in favor of the lighter bullet exponentially better.

In short the rule that heavier bullets perform better than lighter bullets in flight is short sighted and wrong.

My .02

Steve

 

[Broz]

Now we all know that we can drive the better form lighter weight bullet faster than the heavier one of lesser form which will make the performance difference in favor of the lighter bullet exponentially better.

Steve

Yes SD is part of the equation, but do we not know for a fact that the heavier bullet will retain velocity longer and become the faster of the two? It is a fact that the lighter bullets loose velocity faster, correct? Comparing lighter and heavier like a 210 with a BC of .631 fired at a MV of 2900 compared to a 230 with a BC of .711 fired at 2775 MV from the same rifle. By 1000 yards the 230 becomes the faster bullet and also offers over 125 LBS more energy. Testing these side by side shows the 230 to have a substantial amount less wind drift too in actual field testing. So are we saying that BC is the only difference that matters? Like I said before, I have yet to see a lighter bullet win this test in my field testing for what ever reason. Even when the BC are not as far spread as the above test.

Jeff

 

[Joe King]

I think the thing that has been missed on the bc issue is that the weight of the bullet is part of the bc calculation. The aluminum ball and lead ball of the same exact dimensions for example. The lead ball will have a higher bc because it is heavier. Thus it will have less wind drift.

You can have a lighter bullet of same caliber with higher bc because of form. The lighter bullet with better form will have less wind drift, at all distances, than the heavier one even if they are driven at the same velocity. Now we all know that we can drive the better form lighter weight bullet faster than the heavier one of lesser form which will make the performance difference in favor of the lighter bullet exponentially better.

In short the rule that heavier bullets perform better than lighter bullets in flight is short sighted and wrong.

My .02

Steve

Yea if your comparing a heavy round nose bullet to a lighter bullet of VLD design, the lighter bullet will out perform the heavier bullet in regards to external ballistics (duh). That's stepping away from the nature of the discussion with that though by comparing strawberries to lemons for sweetness. It's been proven out time and again that 2 bullets of the same basic shape (design) differing only in weight, launched with the same muzzle energy the heavier bullet will over take the velocity advantage of the lighter bullet down range with, energy, wind drift and eventually drop.

Brian Litz did the home work here:
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/7mmNumberOne.pdf
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/7mmNumberTwo.pdf

 

[RockyMtnMT]

That would be because the bullets that you guys are comparing the heavier one has the higher bc. So the slower, heavier, higher bc bullet will always catch the lighter, faster, lesser bc bullet at some point down range for drop and drift. Same bc bullets of differing weights, the heavier one will never catch the lighter one because of the velocity difference.

My earlier example was of the extreme. We are actually talking about much more subtle differences.

The point is that weight is calculated into bc. More weight adds to the bc. But just because a bullet is heavier it does not automatically have a better bc. That is why the .338 is out running the .50 for drop and drift to any distance.

Steve

 

[Korhil78]

I think the point that they were trying to make is that if you had two bullets of the same bullet type, one being lighter than the other but both had the same BC, tue lighter bullet would win out. You could also drive the lighter bullet faster. I agree with that but the fact is that it just doesn't happen where the lighter bullet of the same make has a higher BC than the heavier bullet. LTLR compared a lighter bullet that he was testing to the 300 gr SMK saying that the lighter bullet has a higher BC and thus flies better and farther. That may well be but it isn't the same design as te SMK. I bet you TONS of money that if the maker of that lighter bullet made a 300 gr bullet, it would have a higher BC than the lighter one that was made before.

If BC is everything, then why not use the highest BC bullet out there for the caliber that you are using? If you do that with any bullet company, using the same design, it will be the heaviest bullet of that design that has the higher BC.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

RockyMtn, you are exactly correct and I have put this in this discussion at least three times. The weight is part of the BC calculation. The highest BC wins at some point down range, not the heaviest weight. Shoot the bullet that best performs within the distance you plan to encounter game.

For example I have been testing the 225 grain Cutting Edge bullet for a year with a .64 BC. I put some results on another thread. I can drive that bullet over 500 fps faster than a 300 grain bullet and it completely overwhelms the 300 grain bullet ballisticaly to 1200+ yards. That varies a little depending on a particular setup. I do not hunt beyond 1200 yards. Anyone that does is for show to see if they can hit it and not for sure kills. The 225 grain CE is the best choice ballistically for hunting at distances most hunters shoot. If I want to bust rocks or hit targets at 2000 yards the new 300 grain Berger with an advertised overwhelming BC over .8 is a good choice. The BC is what I am looking at and not the weight.

I have just started testing the new 260 grain Cutting Edge bullet at an advertised .76 BC. I can drive it 250 fps faster than a 300 grain bullet. If that BC holds true, and I have not tested that yet, it will be a bullet to consider for long range. Just looking at the long, sleek design of the bullet which is quite a bit longer than a 300 grain lead core bullet it would not surprise me if the BC is pretty close to advertised. Working with the long copper Barnes bullets that have shown very high bc per weight numbers gives me a hint the 260 CE has a high BC. There are lighter options that can give a guy an advantage depending on how far he shoots. But at some point downrange the highest BC will win.

Ballistic calculators and kestrels do not lie. Plug in the parameters and that is where your bullet will hit. No matter the weight.

 

[Broz]

I do not hunt beyond 1200 yards. Anyone that does is for show to see if they can hit it and not for sure kills.

I think you need to rethink this statement Don. I take that as throwing dirt in faces here. Is that the kind of discussion you wish to open up? You started this thread saying it was BS. But you sure have used it to forward your agenda.


Plus are you sure the bullet you are refering to will expand at all let alone at 1200? Might want to take that into consideration. I know I started my expansion testing of the bullet I hunt with at 1200 before I took them to any game. Where are the expansion test results of the CuttingEdge bullets? So far these pics are all I have seen.

I can't believe you said that.

Jeff

 

[barnesuser28]

LTLR one more question. What were the BC's you came up with for the 7mm 168 Lrx and the 338 265 Lrx?

I know I started my expansion testing of the bullet I hunt with at 1200 before I took them to any game.

Jeff how did you test the expansion? Could you post some pics?

 

[Broz]

Jeff how did you test the expansion? Could you post some pics?

Here ya go Riley,


http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/berger-hybrid-expansion-test-1180-yds-58186/

 

[barnesuser28]

Thanks, i am thinking about building a wood box just the right size for newspapers to fit in snug and putting a piece of wood probably 1/2" thick infront held on by one screw on the top center so i can just swing it up and check out the damage. I am going to try some trail boss in the Lapua and see if i can get a velocity that will get me an impact velocity of 1600 fps at 100 yards.

 

[Scot E]

I think you need to rethink this statement Don. I take that as throwing dirt in faces here. Is that the kind of discussion you wish to open up? You started this thread saying it was BS. But you sure have used it to forward your agenda.


Plus are you sure the bullet you are refering to will expand at all let alone at 1200? Might want to take that into consideration. I know I started my expansion testing of the bullet I hunt with at 1200 before I took them to any game. Where are the expansion test results of the CuttingEdge bullets? So far these pics are all I have seen.

I can't believe you said that.

Jeff

Are we sure those are the CE hunting bullets and not the solids. I saw this pic on another thread and seem to remember there being some questions as to which bullet it was. These sure don't look like the bullets on their site. They are nicely mushroomed with some of the petals dis attached.

Scot E.

 

[Broz]

Are we sure those are the CE hunting bullets and not the solids. I saw this pic on another thread and seem to remember there being some questions as to which bullet it was. These sure don't look like the bullets on their site. They are nicely mushroomed with some of the petals dis attached.

Scot E.

Can't say for sure which they are Scott. That pic was posted on this forum as results from an expansion test of Cutting Edge bullets. I did not do the test and so I can not say which version they are. But this is the only results I have seen done with any CE's. I would like to see more and may do some myself just to see first hand. I would think most responsible hunters would test for expanion before you hunt with them? Especially a non lead solid? Unless you are in the club like me that would shoot past 1200 yards and have no morrals and am not worthy..



Jeff

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Initial drop tests with the 168 LRX to 1000 yards showed a .62-.64 BC out of my 7mm STW. I was easily getting BC's into the high .6's and Kirby into the .7's with the 265 LRX when it first came out. I do not have my data with me and going by memory. At one range session I remember Kirby saying it was grouping right with the 300 SMK to about 1200 yards. The BC can vary with each rifle and is not completely reliable doing preliminary drop tests but will put you in the ball park. When you decide on a bullet test it at various ranges to at least 1500 yards with excellent notes and checking it against your kestrel or ballistics calculator with every shot. With BC adjustments after each shot in the end you will have the exact BC according to your equipment that matches your data.

Just like shooting anything for accuracy. Repeatability is the only thing that matters. As long as your equipment gives you the correct data everytime for consistent hits it doesn't matter if it says .65 BC with your rig and the next guys equipment says it is .7. A hit is a hit and as long as your equipment matches what you are doing you are going to hit.

Thanks for the link to the bullet catcher. I am going to construct one out of OSB with a lot more dirt so I don't get shoot throughs. My 1000 yard target is supported by two short telephone pole sections. The 225 CE bullet hit one and blew half the back side out through a good size pole. Still have not recovered one. But with enough dirt I will.

EDITED BY LEN


Most all my hunting is inside 1000 yards and I shoot bullets that are ballistically superior to that distance at the range I most encounter game and give me the best chance for a succesful hunt.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Can't say for sure which they are Scott. That pic was posted on this forum as results from an expansion test of Cutting Edge bullets. I did not do the test and so I can not say which version they are. But this is the only results I have seen done with any CE's. I would like to do more and may do some myself just to see first hand. I would think most responsible hunters would test for expansion before you hunt with them? Especially a non lead solid? Unless you are in the club like me that would shoot past 1200 yards and have no morrals and am not worthy..

Jeff

Jeff

You are worthy, and much respected. I look forward to your information. I personally will hunt all ranges out to about 1000. That is where I am comfortable. I want a bullet that will perform at everything in between. I have found that in the GS Custom Bullets. The 177g 30 cal will out run almost everything to about 2000 yrds at the speeds that I can launch them. The speed to bc ratio of this bullet makes it very hard to beat. It is also a true hunting bullet that holds together and deforms properly down to 1500 fps. It creates a square frontal area on impact that does more permanent damage than a rounded mushroom and insures deep penetration at any distance. No blowup or pencil.

If we are only allowed to compare bullets of the same manufacture and model then the heavier one will win every time. I am not limiting my comments on bc and weight to one bullet model. I am comparing long range hunting bullets of all makes.

Also the bc for any given bullet will change depending on the speed at which it is flying. And it will change on a curve through out its flight. Some bullets degrade bc faster than others as they slow down. Some get better as they slow down depending on the muzzle velocity. Tangent vs secant ogive. I will stand by my statement that it is possible to have a lighter vld type hunting bullet that has a better bc than a heavier vld type hunting bullet. This stuff gets quite complicated. We should not simplify it to say that heavier is always better. A 240g bullet is not always better than a 180g bullet. Unless the bc listed for a bullet is dreadfully wrong the bc is the flight characteristic that you will get. Very close depending on starting velocity anyway. I feel like I am starting to ramble. So I will stop.

Steve