Headspacing ? for Gunsmiths

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by bailey1474, Jun 15, 2005.

  1. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    I work for a distributor for Savage. We had a gun that was damaged in shipment and UPS lost the bolt somehow.

    I called and ordered a new bolt from Savage. I received it today but am a bit leary to put the gun on the shelf. Does the headspace need to be set on this gun? I don't want to blow someone up b/c of my ignorance on this deal.

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks,
    B.J.
     
  2. Larry Morris

    Larry Morris Active Member

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    Bill,
    If you can close the bolt on a new case then check the headspace yourself. (If not, then yes it will have to be headspaced for sure)
    Take about 1" of fine solder, mine is .032 thickness, stick one end in the flash hole and wrap the rest around the extractor groove on the case head. Insert the new case in the chamber and close the bolt slowly.
    Remove carefully and using a mic determine the thickness of the solder.
    This will get you pretty close to the headspace that the new bolt has and you can then decide what course of action to take.

    Larry
     

  3. chris matthews

    chris matthews Well-Known Member

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    I am going to disagree with the checking headspace with new brass- you have no idea where that new brass is- 0.001 from the correct number or it can be as much as 0.020" off.

    That's what the make gauges for......

    The thing to remember is cover your butt!!!!! Especially if this is a gun going on the shelf for resale- close is not good enough in today's sue happy world.
     
  4. Larry Morris

    Larry Morris Active Member

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    Everyone is entitled to their opinion.....
    He wants to know if the rifle is OK to put on the shelf.
    If he knows what the headspace is he can tell the buyer and leave it up to them but if he put a go guage in the chamber and the bolt closes does that make it safe?
    If you want a lawyers opinion take it to a lawyer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
    By the way, this is the way Darrel Holland teaches how to chamber and headspace a barrel - on his videos.
    Larry
     
  5. chris matthews

    chris matthews Well-Known Member

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    First a lawyer wouldn't know how to check headspace!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    Second, he needs a go and no go gauge- if it closes on the go and does not close on the no-go the gun is considered safe - within SAAMI specs.
    Checking with solder and a piece of brass does not tell you if it's within SAAMI specs (unless you know what they are) and will not stand up in court if some doorknob blows it up, neither will "I told the customer what it was"

    Honestly- this should be a problem for Savage- They should warranty it to make sure the bolt headspaces correctly to that gun.
     
  6. longtooth

    longtooth Well-Known Member

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    Gator

    I must agree with Chris the headspace should be checked with GO, NO-GO gages lawsuits are a definite consideration but I would hate to lose a good customer. I am also surprised Savage would send you a bolt unless your a authorized repair station. When in business it is always best to error on the side of caution.
     
  7. 308 nate

    308 nate Well-Known Member

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    Here is my take on the headspacing.
    Headspace guages were made for a reason.
    Here is the way I use them.
    I only use a go guage
    for my go and no go
    Once I have taken the measurements and cut the chamber to spec.,I install the go guage if it closes on the go guage then I install a piece of paper measuring .001-.002 in the bolt face, make sure the paper does not fold over. If it closes on this it is a no go and the shoulder is cut on the barrel to move the chamber back.

    There should be no safety issues in using a case with the paper as your guage, the only problem you may ecounter is you may not be able to close the bolt on another lot of cases, which would really tick off a customer especially if he has a nice buck in his sights.
    So for what it's worth get the go guage.

    308nate
    p.s remember, if your case is not under the go guage dimentions, the manufacturer of your brass will not be in business for very long.
     
  8. Pete Lincoln

    Pete Lincoln Well-Known Member

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    headspace. one of my favorite subjects.
    As Bill needs to put the rifle on the shelf and sell it as new then the CHS needs to be within the recognised SAAMI specs. For it to be other wise would be leaving the business open to liability issues. In the absense of availability of head space guages i'd take it to the nearest gun smith and have the head space measured and if need be adjusted to withing specs, its easy to do on a savage due to the barrel nut.
    Now if Bill was keeping the rifle him self, I would suggest he head space of the cases he would be using in the rifle. Rifles that are head spaced to match the ammo that they are using (which is basicaly what is happening when you use once fired brass, providing it was fired in the rifle its to be used in) are more consistently accurate than rifles with over sized, on the outer edge of the SAAMI tollerences.
    My own personal rifles are set up so the case is ever so slightly squeezed between the shoulder and the bolt face when i close the bolt. I use one type of ammo/case in them and the CHS is set for that. Of course variations in factory loaded ammo mean i measure a number of cases in a batch and take the average, up to now with Lapua, Norma, Hornady and Black Hills, the variation in factory cases has ben negligable, almost nil.
    Customers rifles i set to the exact minimum SAAMI spec which still means that all factory ammo can be chambered as i have yet to fin any factory ammo that wasn't slightly under the minimum spec. Unless the customer specificaly wants it done otherwise. In this case I engrave the CHS length on the barrel. Worst case scenario is a rifle that is on the larger side of the tollerance and ammo that is on the small side. This leads to innacuracy, case stretch and in some cases case separations. Ive seen several Remington 700's that where from factory with well over the max CHS spec, which leads me to belive that there are guages and then there are guages.
    To tight a head space isn't nesseceraly a major danger problem, if the bolt won't close on a case, unless you realy force it shut, then you aren't going to encounter problems (exept that you can't chamber a round).
    Too large a head space is a problem and can be dangerous. best case is inaccuracy as the case is either held forward under the force of the plunger ejector, depending on the case width compared to chamber width, the case can be levered side ways slightly, pivoted on the extractor putting the bullet out of true with the centre line of the bore. On firing the case comes slamming back,(and the bullet wobbling forward) not giving the best start for the bullet to enter the rifling, hammering the bolt lugs and streching the case and ruining any accuracy.
    Well far more in depth than the question required, but usefull i hope all the same.
    WARNING:
    if you are head spacing off a case / live round remove the bloody firing pin before hand !!
    You would be better to remove the bullet from the case as some bullets in certain ammo put in certain chambers will lodge in the rifleing before the shoulders of the case and chamber contact, in this case you would end up with way over sized head space.
    I know of a certain rifle. a 6.5x55. The chamber was cut with a mis marked 6.5x57 chamber reamer. This was a major screw up by the reamer manufacturer or some idiot re etching the reamer for a start.( Hobby Gun Smiths and Professionals alike, beware, Buy your reamers from a reputable place !!) The head space was measured(if you can call it measured as no measure ments where done, off some Norma match ammo. The ammo had long long bullets loaded in it and the barrel was made with a tight/ short throat. The CHS was done in the method of a piece of paper on the bolt face and the case in the chamber. As you can imagine, the chamber was 2mm too long to start with, the bullet was touching the rifling and the case shoulder was a ways away from the chamber shoulder.
    The rifle was test fired,firstly with normal hunting ammo,which had a shorter bullet than the match ammo, the firer reported the absence of any recoil for the first few rounds and then a couple of miss fires followed by a strange sound, difficult bolt opening and a separated case.
    The first few cases had managed to stay in one piece, apparently bieng held on the bolt face whilst bieng fired, its questionable as to wether the bullet, bieng way away from the lands, slamming in to the bore had counter effected the recoil, acting a bit like one of those mercury recoil reducers, would account for the lack of recoil. The miss fires would have been the round further in the chamber, not held by the extractor, firing pin couldn't reach the primer properly. Anyway, then a case separation occured.Luckily No harm was done to the shooter / hobby gun smith.The bolt logs where burred but not badly dammaged.
    When i got the rifle to look at and the story un folded it became mostly apparent what had happened. I took the rifle appart, bleaned up the bolt lugs, inspected the thing thoroughly and put it back together, whith correct CHS measurements, the thing shot very well there after, the guy was lucky, that had to be some way out fire forming excersize by accident.
    Anyway the moral of the story is, don't mess with what you are un sure about, if you are unsure, take it to a professional gun smith to have it checked out, beware of reamers bought on ebay, don't just rely on cases for CHS, measurements should be taken also. Wear eye protection whilst shooting.
    cheers Pete
     
  9. 3sixbits

    3sixbits Well-Known Member

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    Pete, brings up a vary useful point about case extractors and head-space. The Remington extractor offers no real protection against excessive head-space. Even the lowly hook extractor offers some. The claw affording the best. I once fired 10 rounds of 7.62 NATO in a National Match Garand chambered for 30-06, thanks to a National Guard member handing me my ammo in the clips while shooting prone rapid fire. My first clue something was amiss was the strange looking brass laying next to me that for all the world looked like rimless .410 shells. The second clue was the Maggie's draws waived in front of my target by the pit crew. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  10. Larry Morris

    Larry Morris Active Member

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    Chris is probably right, since I know who Bill works for - send it back to Savage and let them worry about it.
    I suggested the new case and solder method to see what the headspace is.
    Send it back and you can sleep better at night.
    If nothing else you have gained some knowledge about headspacing and that's what this board is all about.

    Larry
     
  11. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Thanks for all the info guys.

    We've got a gunsmith that does some work for us. I think I'll call him in the morning and see what he would charge. Who knows, it may be cheaper than paying freight to send the gun back to Savage.

    Thanks,
    B.J.

    PS- I did learn alot about headspacing!!!
     
  12. boomer

    boomer Active Member

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    Now if we could get you to learn about a good football team.
     
  13. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Are speaking of USC or LSU?