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<blockquote data-quote="Steve Shelp" data-source="post: 1748" data-attributes="member: 22"><p>Denny,</p><p> As an add on to your question here's an interesting way to look at this and how competition group apply to the field. Forgive me because I don't have the exact numbers right in front of me right now. I've got this written down at home somewhere. And the reason I did this little test was because of valid questions like you posted above or for "non-believers" that always say, "well look at the group size in competition, off the bench, with wind flags.... you can't kill a deer consistently with a XX.XXX" group" etc. etc. etc.</p><p></p><p>Last year at our national championships I took my 3 HG targets that were fired over 2 days. 1 on Sat and 2 on Sunday. They were (not positive) 9", 10" and the last was 16". Being that these were fired at Quantico with people in the pits plotting each shot for your record target I know the shot sequence the shot come through the target in. Now keep in mind during the record string you don't have spotter shots. You have to take whatever you learn during your 6 minutes sighter period and apply it blindly to what the mirage and wind is giving you during your 10 shot string.</p><p></p><p>What I did was go through and measure the distance between each sequential shots, and record it. Again the exact number for all 30 shots ( (3)10 shot strings) is written at home somewhere, but the largest distance between any 2 sequential shots was 7.??" I believe. This applies more to the hunting side of this in my opinion. And that 7" distance was in the 16" group. I lost one shot low for whatever reason. The average distance between sequential shots for the whole 30 shot string was in the 3-4" range I think.</p><p> Then when you consider during the sighter period when you can see you impacts and adjust to them it's not uncommon to shoot, adjust to the impact, and nail a 10 or an X ring on your next shot.</p><p></p><p>So when you take the hunting situation of using a spotter and backing it up with the killing shot after making adjustments, 10 shot group sizes don't really apply. </p><p> Kinda goes back to the 308 sniper rifle mentality as compared to a full blown benchrest rifle in competition with a 30 caliber magnum. The sniper needs 1 MOA for 1 shot and his job is done. BR guys need less then 1 MOA to even be competitive, let alone win, for 10 shots in a row. Which rifle is more "accurate"? (Shelp's)answer: Your comparing apples to oranges. So it's irrelevant. They both get their assigned mission done.</p><p></p><p>But I don't want to give the impression that matches are totally irrelevant either. You learn at lot more sitting at a bench in competition over time about rifles and reloading that you can then go back and apply it to your hunting rifles and you are that much better. There's no substitute for trigger time. Competitions keep me tuned-up throughout the summer until hunting season rolls around.</p><p></p><p>Darryl, so when are we going to start giving out awards for 8 and 9 shot groups? I have a few to submit for measuring!</p><p></p><p>Just my observations and opinions,</p><p>Steve</p><p></p><p>[ 03-25-2002: Message edited by: Steve Shelp ]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Steve Shelp, post: 1748, member: 22"] Denny, As an add on to your question here's an interesting way to look at this and how competition group apply to the field. Forgive me because I don't have the exact numbers right in front of me right now. I've got this written down at home somewhere. And the reason I did this little test was because of valid questions like you posted above or for "non-believers" that always say, "well look at the group size in competition, off the bench, with wind flags.... you can't kill a deer consistently with a XX.XXX" group" etc. etc. etc. Last year at our national championships I took my 3 HG targets that were fired over 2 days. 1 on Sat and 2 on Sunday. They were (not positive) 9", 10" and the last was 16". Being that these were fired at Quantico with people in the pits plotting each shot for your record target I know the shot sequence the shot come through the target in. Now keep in mind during the record string you don't have spotter shots. You have to take whatever you learn during your 6 minutes sighter period and apply it blindly to what the mirage and wind is giving you during your 10 shot string. What I did was go through and measure the distance between each sequential shots, and record it. Again the exact number for all 30 shots ( (3)10 shot strings) is written at home somewhere, but the largest distance between any 2 sequential shots was 7.??" I believe. This applies more to the hunting side of this in my opinion. And that 7" distance was in the 16" group. I lost one shot low for whatever reason. The average distance between sequential shots for the whole 30 shot string was in the 3-4" range I think. Then when you consider during the sighter period when you can see you impacts and adjust to them it's not uncommon to shoot, adjust to the impact, and nail a 10 or an X ring on your next shot. So when you take the hunting situation of using a spotter and backing it up with the killing shot after making adjustments, 10 shot group sizes don't really apply. Kinda goes back to the 308 sniper rifle mentality as compared to a full blown benchrest rifle in competition with a 30 caliber magnum. The sniper needs 1 MOA for 1 shot and his job is done. BR guys need less then 1 MOA to even be competitive, let alone win, for 10 shots in a row. Which rifle is more "accurate"? (Shelp's)answer: Your comparing apples to oranges. So it's irrelevant. They both get their assigned mission done. But I don't want to give the impression that matches are totally irrelevant either. You learn at lot more sitting at a bench in competition over time about rifles and reloading that you can then go back and apply it to your hunting rifles and you are that much better. There’s no substitute for trigger time. Competitions keep me tuned-up throughout the summer until hunting season rolls around. Darryl, so when are we going to start giving out awards for 8 and 9 shot groups? I have a few to submit for measuring! Just my observations and opinions, Steve [ 03-25-2002: Message edited by: Steve Shelp ] [/QUOTE]
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