Guides and LR shots

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by Alan Griffith, May 19, 2007.

  1. Alan Griffith

    Alan Griffith Well-Known Member

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    Next year, not this, for my 50th, my wife is saying "go for it". Basically, I'm hoping to go for Sheep/Grizzly/Moose. This will, I believe, dictate the mandatory use of a guide in Alaska or Canada. Since this may be a once in a life time hunt, money and age being the primary factor, I want to be ready to take the shot and any sane range that I'm capable. This may be longer than the guide will allow if he does not understand LR capabilities.

    Any one out there ever have any trouble with guides/outfitters who refuse to deal with you or even deny the hunter to take the shot if their beliefs are not on par with our?

    In case the question arises, the caliber will be 30-06 Ackley with 180 AB's running 3/4 MOA at 3050 fps.
    Big Al
     
  2. wildcat338

    wildcat338 Well-Known Member

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    Al,

    This very thing happened to us in Africa on a plains game hunt. Due to bad experiences with past clients the guide wasnt very thrilled to allow any long(er) shots on game. He wanted to get as close as possible which is fine by me but theyre were situations where we couldnt get closer and he wouldnt let us shoot. I am not talking LONG RANGE either normal was between 3-500 yds. Finally what we did was had a talk with him over lunch one day explained that we practiced at these distances ALOT and felt confident we could make the shot and we would prove it. That took him over the edge and he agreed to take us back to the range. We set up targets at 300 and did some shooting and he was impressed and finally agreed to let us take a long shot if one presented itself. Well needless to say not to long after a nice hartebeest was spotted and ranged @ 400 yds my friend was the shooter he made his adj. and let her fly the hartebeest never knew what hit him he dropped right there. A few more animals fell at longer than normal ranges for them anyway and we made a believer out of him /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    My advice to you is discuss this with your outfitter/ guide service before ever booking with them and make things up front from the beginning. Also im sure with all the people here that someone may have a contact etc. to some outfitter or guide who actually welcomes LRH anyway goodluck with your search and even better luck with your hunt.

    Aloha,

    Dave
     

  3. James Jones

    James Jones Well-Known Member

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    Al , I've talked to a couple guides about this sort of thing and they all said that if the hunter can prover that he can make a long shot in field conditions then they would let him try , but if the animal LOOKS hit and even if their is no sign of blood and the animal is not recovered their tag gets punched and the guide gets paid and the hunter goes home empty handed.

    what are you talking about for long range ????

    Now if the bears your wanting to shoot are anything bigger than black bears then I would definatly get a bigger calber , yes the 180 accubond at 3000fps will do the job on all three critters you mentioned , I personaly feel that it would be margenal for big bears and moose at long range. I'm sure that it would kill anything here in north america or the world for that matter at 800yds if the shot is perfect , but we get very few of those.

    I would step up to a bigger 300 like the RUM and 200gr accubonds , or a bigger 338 like the RUM or Edge.

    Granted if a world class bear walked out at 600yds and was just standing their broadside and the conditions were right I would shoot him with a 308 if thats what I had but I woulden't go chasing after the trophy of a liftime with margenal horse power.
     
  4. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Unfortunately you should do what your guide wants on the hunt. That is why its best to talk these things over before you get to that point.

    The first thing I would look for is a reputable guide service above all else. Just because they will let you shoot long range does not mean they are a quality outfitter, may just mean that they do not care what happens to the game.

    The reason most guides do not like long range shooting is because sadly, most hunters think they are long range shooters but in all honesty should be limited to less then 200 yards, especially when there is something like a bull yukon moose or grizzly in front of them.

    Find a reputable outfitter first, talk about long range shooting later. You will have a better chance at getting your animals that way.

    As far as your rifle, I would also have to agree with James that your running a little light with that rifle. For conventional ranges, it would work fine in most cases but again, this is a hunt of a lifetime.

    Even if you do not want to jump up to the ultra mag cases, I would at least recommend something like a 300 Win Mag or 338 Win Mag. Both are very easy to shoot and both would be head and shoulders above what the 30-06 will offer on game at any range.

    I would agree that the 300 RUM or 338 RUM or Edge would be better choices as well if you can shoot them accurately and with todays muzzle brakes and recoil pads, there is no reason why you could not shoot them very well.

    Again, putting that bullet in the right spot is the most critical factor to taking game but there is no doubt that the larger calibers are far more effective on heavy game when hit on the fringes. That said, a gut shot bear is a gut shot bear no matter what you hit him with so you need to be able to shoot what you take.

    That is another reason guides do not like long range shooting, I would not like to go after a wounded grizzly either!!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  5. Alan Griffith

    Alan Griffith Well-Known Member

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    Kirby,

    [ QUOTE ]
    I would at least recommend something like a 300 Win Mag or 338 Win Mag. Both are very easy to shoot and both would be head and shoulders above what the 30-06 will offer on game at any range.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Glad you mentioned that.

    Federal factory ballistics for 300 WM &amp; 180 Nosler AB is 2960 fps at the muzzle.

    My '06 Ackely with the same bullet runs 3050 fps.

    I appreciate the advice. Pleast trust that I am not going to take a long shot just because I can, but because I have to. And....I'll more than likely keep it within 550 yards which would be about 2000 ft lbs of E.

    Big Al
     
  6. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Realize I did not say to use factory ammo either.

    You load a 300 Win Mag up with a 200 gr Accubond and it would match the velocity you are getting with your 30-06 AI with the 180 gr Accubond. On heavy game, bullet weight will mean much more then velocity ever will.

    Also, on heavy game, bullet diameter will also make a much more authoritative hit as well.

    Certainly not saying that your 30-06 AI is not capable, it certainly is, Just realize what your hunting and that as yourself state, this may be a once in a lifetime hunt. I would not settle for the performance level you are at currently on a hunt like this. For the money you will spend on this hunt, spend another 10% and have a full custom rifle made that will cover any situation that may arise at any range close or long. A 338 Edge or 338 Allen Xpress would be simply impossible to beat in a custom rifle built for the conditions up north.

    Those two round would give you 2850 to 2950 fps with the 300 gr SMK and would truely be impressive at any range on heavy game.

    Again, not hammering your 30-06 AI, just saying that for what you will have invested in this hunt, a new rifle may be another minor investment.

    Imagine that big old bull moose staring you down at 800 yards. Your 30-06 AI is not a 1/2 mile moose rifle whereas the two 338 mentioned certainly are and when built properly, will have less recoil then an unbraked 30-06 AI in a sporter weight rifle.

    Just my opinion, take it or leave it. Just hope you have a hell of a hunt!! That will truely be a once in a life time experience!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  7. dicktaylor

    dicktaylor Member

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    I don't think there will be a problem with the moose. They are a huge target and they won't try to eat you if you have to track them after the shot. The guide will want to get you as close as possible,though,because that's his job. Most sheep are not shot at extreme range. They are spotted from afar and a stalk is planned which keeps you hidden until you are in decent range. Long shots are rather rare and are not favored because wounded rams sometimes run off cliffs and get messed up so badly a taxidermist can't put them back together. Grizzlies are a different matter. The guide will want to get you close enough to be sure you place the shot where it will kill quickly. Guides don't like following up on wounded grizzlies. Enjoy your trip!
     
  8. buffalorancher

    buffalorancher Writers Guild

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    Al,
    The vast majority of my clients shoot 1 1/2 MOA rifles with factory ammuniton sighted 2 inches high at 100 yds. Anything over 250 yds is stretching it. What we deal with far more than someone's ability is their inability to control their emotions. Also known as buck fever. Shooting any distance just compounds the shakes but fortunately it doesn't take much range to cause a miss. As a guide/outfitter this is the major concern of mine when shooting very far. The unfortunate part of this equation is that the guy who really spends time with his rifle is the guy who really wants that big buck so he gets the shakes the worst of anyone. I blame it all on horn porn on the TV but if I feel someone has descent nerves I will let them shoot as far as they are capable of.
    Lance
     
  9. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    GSSP,

    Nice to meet you at the BR match last weekend and put a face with the name!

    Unfortunately, many of our clients have been turned down the opportunity to shoot long range on game despite almost going to blows to convince the guide it could be done with the rifle we sent them afield with and the practice they had done. On the other hand, some of our clients were given the opportunity to prove they could make a long shot in camp before they went hunting. When they dusted rocks at 1000 yards repeatedly, a dall sheep at 600 yards doesn't look so ominous anymore. It really just depends on the guide.

    I know for my money, if I was in the situation to shoot long and it was the only option besides going home empty-handed, the shot WOULD BE TAKEN even if I had to knock the guide out to take the shot. I would just have to explain that we had some meat packin' to do once he came to. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


    Buffalo rancher,

    I understand and agree with your comments about rack porn and overemphasizing the importance of a big rack. But when it boils down to it, whatever causes buck fever is not relative to shooting long or short. Some guys get it and some guys don't. I tend to get buck fever more when that buck is 50 yards from me than when he is 1050 yards from me. I trust myself to kill him at long range more so than at close range. When he is standing 10 football fields from me, ice is in my veins. When he is breathing down my neck, I cannot hold as still. Guides should come to understand each hunter's abilities and personalities before taking the client afield and before making a decision about how far they will allow a shot in my opinion.
     
  10. phorwath

    phorwath Well-Known Member

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    A guide would be required for a nonresident hunting grizzly bear or sheep in Alaska. I can't speak for what your guide may or may not allow with respect to long rang shooting. I think others have already given you some good advice there. I've hunted all three of these game animals for the past 30 years, and from numerous first-hand experiences, I can say that sheep and moose are relatively easy animals to dispatch at either close or long range. But grizzlies, coastal brown bears, or even black bears need to be hit very well on the first shot.

    A moose offers a huge kill zone, making it a pretty simple task to hit the lungs at longer ranges. A lung-shot moose won't go very far with any expanding bullet that penetrates far enough to get through both lungs. Dall sheep are relatively frail animals. They are disabled and die under less physical trauma than other similar sized animals I've seen harvested, such as goat and bear. Sheep hunting can present very long shots. You'll not only need to know your cartridge's ballistics on level shots, but also on angled slopes up to 50 degrees if you intend to shoot at any distance. There's a big difference in bullet trajectory over long, sloped distances compared to shooting on the level. You will spot sheep a long ways away (as will they you if given the opportunity). I've killed dall rams from 13 yds to over 750 yds. I hasten to even mention this for fear of being piled-on by those quick to impose their ethics; should you happen to hit a sheep less than perfectly with a first shot, the terrain is often wide open and based on their nature, you'll generally be afforded additional standing shots. With any kind of decent hit, they won't be able to muster an up-the-mountain escape. You'll usually have opportunity for additional shots to ensure a wounded animal isn't lost. But as mentioned by another poster above, you have to consider the setting and the animal's ability to quickly reach cover, cliffs, or terrain which could prevent recovery of the animal.

    Bears are in a different category. They die easily enough with a good hit through the lungs, but the difference with bears is you better hit them pretty darn good on your first shot. Bears usually get up and go at the first hit without offering a lot of second chances for standing still follow-up shots. Once they've been hit, they won't run a short distance and then turn around to figure things out. They generally keep going until they reach cover or disappear over the mountain, if in mountainous terrain. Nothing harder to recover than marginally hit bears. I shot one high in the lungs on Kodiak Island last month. Tracked him for about 400 yards across completely white covered mountainside. I never found even a red speck of blood against that completely white background - I mean not one drop of blood. Fortunately, the bear was hit hard enough that he bedded down out on the open mountainside about 1/3 mile from where he was initially hit, and we were able to finish him off. I'm really hesitant to shoot bears at longer ranges, due to the difficulty in recovering marginally hit bears. Plus they bite back if given the reason and opportunity.

    I believe your '06 is up to the job for these three animals - provided by bear we mean black bear or inland grizzly. For large coastal brown bears, I believe you'd be better served with a 338. Yes, you'll kill them with an '06, but a 338 RUM class cartridge will hit them with notably more authority, which is never a bad thing.

    Thought you might find my experiences of interest. Enjoy your hunt. As has been mentioned, do what you can to help ensure you get a competent and compatible guide.
     
  11. dicktaylor

    dicktaylor Member

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    I neglected to mention the wind factor. In that mountainous terrain, wind velocity and direction are fickle. A gentle breeze where the shooter is located can be swirling from a different direction and much stronger where the game is standing. The farther you shoot, the more deflection you must deal with. There are no flags to help you with the shot.