GS Moly Coated Bullets

[RockyMtnMT]

Yes I was using the .412 bc. I don't have my log book here right now, but I believe I was running the 150's @ 3150 fps and the 160's @ 3050 fps out of the 22" 30-06.

Like Lightvarmint said, they are close to the holy grail of bullets in my opinion. I agree that the bc's are not as high as we all would like to see, but you add 200fps to similar weight conventional bullets and it eats up some of the difference.

They need high twist rates to stabilize them. Conventional twist for caliber will have to shoot light for caliber bullets. The only way a guy can shoot these bullets is to check all of his conventional thoughts at the door. You gotta start w/ an open mind.

Lightvarmint send me a pm on the 173's.

Steve

 

[davewilson]

the "pros" of the GS Customs is they are probably the best hunting bullet there is for ranges out to 5-600. the faster they're driven, the better they work. for longer distances, i lean towards the cup and core bullets that fragment.

their cost and the delivery times/availability from Africa are in the "cons" catagory.

the brain behind these things is Gerard Schultz. probably one of the most knowledgable on the planet with regards to interior/exterior balistics/bullets. i would recommend checking out his web site, there is a wealth of information on there.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

the "pros" of the GS Customs is they are probably the best hunting bullet there is for ranges out to 5-600. the faster they're driven, the better they work. for longer distances, i lean towards the cup and core bullets that fragment.

their cost and the delivery times/availability from Africa are in the "cons" catagory.

the brain behind these things is Gerard Schultz. probably one of the most knowledgable on the planet with regards to interior/exterior balistics/bullets. i would recommend checking out his web site, there is a wealth of information on there.

+1 on that, I have spent a lot of hours there. They talk about using a little less twist for the ranges beyond 500 yrds, but if you do this they will not perform as designed under 500yrds. I have thought about carrying the longer bullet for long range and loading the rifle with shorter for conventional shots. Probably not bad thinking no matter what type of bullets a guy prefers.

Steve

 

[MontanaRifleman]

the "pros" of the GS Customs is they are probably the best hunting bullet there is for ranges out to 5-600. the faster they're driven, the better they work. for longer distances, i lean towards the cup and core bullets that fragment.

their cost and the delivery times/availability from Africa are in the "cons" catagory.

the brain behind these things is Gerard Schultz. probably one of the most knowledgable on the planet with regards to interior/exterior balistics/bullets. i would recommend checking out his web site, there is a wealth of information on there.

I'm not being argumentantive here, at least trying not to be but I think the same reason that they are good killers out to 500 yds is the same reason they would be better killers than a frangible bullet at longer ranges. Being that they maintain mass and therefore momentum and produce a wound channel.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlemomentum.html

As for cost and delivery, if they double barrel life, they are a big savings and you can order them through a dealer in Alaska and I've heard they arive in less than a week. Some of their prices are actually about the same as a lot of mainline premium bullets. The HV 177 comes in at a little over a dollar a piece.

The question is how well do they really perform? It sounds like for the most part that they perform pretty much as advertized except the BC, which is significant but might be offset by higher velocities.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

+1 on that, I have spent a lot of hours there. They talk about using a little less twist for the ranges beyond 500 yrds, but if you do this they will not perform as designed under 500yrds. I have thought about carrying the longer bullet for long range and loading the rifle with shorter for conventional shots. Probably not bad thinking no matter what type of bullets a guy prefers.

Steve

Ditto, I've been spending a lot of time reading there as well and it's all very interesting.

Looking at their twist charts, there seems to be a narrow window that would allow for both short and long range hunting charts.

I too have thought about carrying different bullets for conventional and LR hunting, especially since many long range bullet/loads won't fit into standard mags.

I ran some quick ballistics based on the velocity you gave for 150 and a 1 MOA difference in drop @ 750 yds would show a BC of about .370 as opposed to the .412 advertized, @ 3000' elevation.

If the 177 gr bullet BC was actually .550 it would still be better than the E-Tip, not to mention the better velocity and other advantages. Just thinking out loud.

They say they will do custom bullets too. I wonder if they could take their 197 SP and drill a cavity in it for expansion. That would be one sweet bullet.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Hi Guys,
Some information to clear the air and put things in perspective.

GSC takes criticism seriously. We always have and always will.

On the subject of BC.

Towards the end of 2006 I became aware of the fact that some of our BC numbers were complete fiction. GSC had been concentrating on building the best possible hunting bullet, from a reliability point of view. The priorities were: A. The elimination of bullet failure due to under expansion or complete fragmentation or turning/tumbling after impact. B. Quality control - In order to deliver bullets that would be as uniform as possible. C. Consistency of terminal ballistics.

With all due respect to the long range hunters here, it did not occur to us that some men would apply our hunting bullets at the ranges that seem everyday here.

Simply put, BC numbers were not a priority and the generation of same was left to people who did not get the job done right. Several methods were employed to arrive at BC numbers including, it seems, sucking on a thumb.

However, once I became aware of the problems the bad information was causing, I pulled all BC data from our site and started on a solution.

This lead to a fair bit of research and a whole lot of changes.

We learned how to optimise a bullet to increase the BC and do it much faster than previously. We developed software of our own and adapted software from other sources to better suit our purposes.

The bottom line is that we now have a uniform system, based on calculation, that is far more accurate. A spin off of this search for better methods is that we have embarked on a subtle redesign of our entire range. We kept the terminal performance reliability and added tweaks to increase BC, gas handling and accuracy.

Only a handful of HV bullets must still be done with the new data system and our new Tech Data pages are almost all done. We now give a lot more information as well. All important dimensions, a stability factor chart and BCs at three speeds.

Currently we are concentrating on getting the data for the SP long range bullets sorted. We should be done by the end of the month.

To see what an individual bullet profile page looks like, go to the HV Bullets page on our site, click on Tech Data and click on any underlined bullet number.

Comments will be welcome.

 

[Lightvarmint]

Hello,

Thanks Gerard for the update.

Question: Have you all done any instrumental testing to determine BC of your bullets or is it just based on computer models at this point. Several companies have found that the BC changes once the bullet is engraved and had to lower their advetised BC numbers.....

Thanks again.

LV

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Hi LV,
We have done no chrono work to test the new BC numbers. The GSC bullet range runs to more than 200 at this point and it is not an option for me to shoot every one.

The feedback we have had sometimes indicate that our numbers are conservative and sometimes optimistic. Maybe it is varying conditions that are causing this. Until I have a tunnel range, we will stay with the method we use now. At least it is a constant method with some reliability. If someone finds that a bullet is high/low, that will be the case with other bullets in our range as well and a factor can be developed to adjust our BCs to his conditions.

 

[Lightvarmint]

Gerard,

I bought a good number of your bullets and I even supplied some very positive customer feedback that is on your website with regard to their accuracy performance.

Specifically:

"When I shot last week, I was just shooting two shots to develop the trajectory tables. At 700 yards the bullets were less than 2" apart. At 400 yards, they were less than .75" apart. I spent a lot of time at 400 because that is my zero yardage. - James, South Carolina, USA 2005"

However, the BCs were not close to the ones that were published as you have previously stated above.

My question is how does one go about getting a refund on the remaining bullets since they did not meet the published BC values advertised on the website.

I currently have 4 boxes of 173 grain HVs along with the shipping from my order.

Thanks.

James

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Gerard,

Thanks for joining the thread - it's great to have you here to answer some questions.

I'm new to the LR shooting world, but one thing I've discovered is that high BC is what gets bullets way down range. The heavier ones are typically the best sometimes sacrificing velocty for BC and LR momentum.

The GS bullets certainly offer a lot of benefits for long range shooters, such as higher velocities, more consistancy (less ES), longer barrel life and lower opening velocities to name a few.

The BC's seem to be fairly good, give or take, in some of the HV's. The HP's *appear* to have the streamline design of a higher BC bullet. Would they be a good option for LR hunting? Does the lack of bands mean they would generate higher pressures and lower velocity?

The SP bullets are the type of bullet that would get the attention of the LR shooter but as you know they aren't very practicle for hunting. Is there a way to produce similar bullets to the SP, to expand like the HV's and HP's?


Thanks in advance,

Mark

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Gerard,

Are the current 173g .308 HV's different in design than ones from 2 or 3 years ago? I have some of the 173's that I still have not tried. If the new ones are different then I will not mess w/ the old ones.

According to your web site I am right on the edge of enough twist to run these under 500 yrds for hunting. Although I should be able to push them bit faster than what you are showing. So I am hoping that I will be right in the middle of the twist calculator for long and short range hunting w/ the 173's and can use them as close or far as I would like.

We did some hunting w/ the .308 160HV out of a 30-06 this last fall. This bullet was slightly on the long side according to the twist calculations on your web site. They performed very well on a hard quartering away mule deer at 300yrds. Cut three ribs going in and exited the base of the neck/chest on a straight line. Dropped that deer like he was hit in the head.

Thank you in advance for your comment.

Steve

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Hi James,
Please contact Gina at gina.s(at)wol.co.za so that we can sort this out for you.

MontanaRifleman,
The HP range is a complete redesign from the ones we were making two years ago. We shut down the HP operation, did the redesign and started it up again. HV and HP bullets now have the same terminal performance of expanding from 1300fps to completely expanded at 1600fps, 100% retention up tp 2500fps and with better than 75% retention, regardless of impact speed up to 3500fps. The HP range is a smooth shank, round boat tail, extremely accurately made standard appearance bullet. HPs are hunting bullets intended for average hunting distances.

The HV range have the drive bands and offer lower pressure/more speed over the HP range. Barrel life is significantly extended and there are several other advantages of the low friction that one gets from HV bullets. HVs are hunting bullets with a wider application of distance than the HP range. In the last two years we have made available some HVs that are designed to be used at further than average hunting distances.

The SP range are non expanding bullets made specifically for distance work and for competition shooting. The range include specific bullets for specific distances and twist rates. Being non expanding ogived bullets, all will tumble on impact if used for hunting. Depending on the choice of bullet, tumbling could be a 180 degree turn and then penetrating base forwards, or more than one rotation. As a tactical bullet the SP range is good.

Modifying an SP to expand brings us back to an HV designed for distance work (177gr HV as opposed to the 173gr HV in .308" or the 116gr HV / 120gr HV in .284")

RockyMntMT,
The entire HV range is upgraded to a better design BC and especially for better accuracy and gas control. We did this in such a manner that existing load data would not become obsolete. In most cases the new bullet can be used without changing charge weight or col. At hunting distances to 400m or so, there is little difference that the average hunter will notice. In some instances the changes we made will require an adjustment of col over the old length but that is all. Charge weights are not affected.

To answer your question specifically, the old 173gr will perform well out to 400/500m and it is an excellent hunting bullet in the correct twist rate. The new 173gr bullet differs only in having better BC, a little more speed and further improved accuracy but we are talking about a couple of inches at 400m.

The bottom line is that we have made significant improvements to our range of bullets for the first time in 9 years. We feel that we never lost the advantage that we brought to the market in 1997 and have further extended the technical lead we have, with the redesign of the HP range and the extension of the SP range.

Thanks for the opportunity to reply. If I can help in any way, just let me know.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Gerard,

Thank you for the attention you have given us. What is the drag profile used for the advertised bc's?

Thank you, Steve

 

[Lightvarmint]

Hi James,
Please contact Gina at gina.s(at)wol.co.za so that we can sort this out for you.

.

Gerard,

Thanks for the recommendation. I just sent her another email to hopefully close out the situation.

James