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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by edge, Dec 22, 2006.

  1. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    I am trying to diagnose a problem with my muzzleloader.

    I am 90% sure that it is a mechanical problem and would like your opinions on the best place to start.

    The rifle shoots two groups. First shot is almost always dead center, then I will get a bullet 1 1/4 inches right, then back on center. Sometimes I will get two center then one right, but it almost always throws one or two to the right out of 5 and almost exactly the same distance.

    Here is a representative target:

    [​IMG]

    Rifle is a Shilen .458 #7 barrel;
    Bullets are 150 grain NAB;
    Velocity around 3100 fps
    Target shot @ 100 yards /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
    Savage Tupperware stock with the action glass bedded.
    I have poor bench technique, but I think that this is mechanical.

    [​IMG]

    Any thoughts?

    edge.
     
  2. AJ Peacock

    AJ Peacock Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure you know more about muzzleloading than I do, but maybe my questions will lead you somewhere.

    1) Specifically what do you do between shots? (for example, Swab with a spit patch, then a dry patch?). I know my Muzzleloaders have always been picky about what I do between shots.

    2) How long do you wait between shots? Is there any correlation between 2 quick shots and a flier, where slower shots tend not to have the fliers?

    3) What primer system are you using? I've heard that regular 209 primers are pretty hot and can cause slight variations in accuracy due to 'movement' of the powder charge etc. This makes seating pressure very critical in some muzzleloaders.

    4) I've seen sabots stripped by the rifling when pushed down the barrel too fast with no rotation allowed by the ramrod. I doubt this one in your case, but its worth a thought. Just allow the ramrod to rotate with the rifling as you seat the bullet. I saw one particular sabot and rifle where this happened and it would send a flier.

    5) What powder are you using? (BP, 777, Pyrodex) also, loose or pellets. A crushed pellet can cause fliers.

    Thats all my thoughts. Take it in the manner it was intended. It's likely you've thought about most if not all of these.

    Hope this helped.

    Merry Christmas,
    Don
     

  3. MagMan

    MagMan Well-Known Member

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    What twist does that have?

    Have you tried shooting from 200?
     
  4. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    Good questions /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    1) I swab with an alcohol moistened patch, followed by a dry patch between every shot.

    2) I would guess that there is about 3-5 minutes between shots now that the weather is cool. I feel the patch when I pull it out of the barrel for heat, but the alcohol cools the barrel pretty fast.

    3) I use CCI magnum 209 primers.

    4) If you look at the sabot picture, you will notice that they are of a rigid plastic, and individually machined on a CNC lathe. The barrel is 1:14 twist and the rifling is machined into the sabot. The slots are all cut into the same rifling groove and the barrel has a mark to ensure that the sabot slots are loaded into the same barrel groove each time. ( that is why there is a black stripe on the sabots.) The sabots could not be pushed hard enough by hand to make them not rotate as you load them.

    5) Load is a duplex consisting of 20.7 grains of Vihtavouri N110 and 50 grains of IMR 3031

    edge.

    I have not shot @ 200 yards, I mainly shoot at night and my only range is 100 yards underground.
     
  5. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    5) Load is a duplex consisting of 20.7 grains of Vihtavouri N110 and 50 grains of IMR 3031

    ???? How confident could one be about the consistency of the blend????
     
  6. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    5) Load is a duplex consisting of 20.7 grains of Vihtavouri N110 and 50 grains of IMR 3031

    ???? How confident could one be about the consistency of the blend????

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Elevation is very good, IMO. Divergence is always horizontal and very consistent. I think that if the load were inconsistent that I would have a vertical spread....but not 100% sure.

    edge.
     
  7. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    Here is a similar target. This is also a duplex load of 20.0 gr. N110 and 50 grains of 2015.

    The shots on this target were center, then right 1 1/4 then the 2 holes left and right of the first shot.

    The last shot was at the lower aiming dot and is a twin to the other 1 1/4 right within about 0.100

    If this is load inconsistency, then it is very consistent in its result /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    edge.

    The bullet here was a 8mm 150 grain ProHunter.
    [​IMG]

    edge.
     
  8. MagMan

    MagMan Well-Known Member

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    Looks like a loose front ring (dovetail) to me. I may be off base, but it's Dec. 22 and I haven't been wrong all year. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Just an idea

    tried a new scope?
     
  9. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    I will be putting a 1 pc. base on next week so I should find out pretty soon, that would be great.

    edge.
     
  10. RDM416

    RDM416 Well-Known Member

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    Edge,

    I don't have any other suggestions to offer you than what the other posts have said. Judging from your posts I think you know a LOT more about muzzleloaders than I do anyway. Which bring me to my question for you.

    Do you know anything about BadBull muzzleloaders? I am planning at least one mz hunt next year in Kansas an may do another state where only mz or shotgun is allowed...and maybe an mz elk in NM.

    Anyway, I have decided it is time to get serious about a muzzleloader. I have a Savage that I shoot smokeless in now and it does pretty well at typical mz ranges (150 yds) or so, but I want an mz that I can be comfortable with a 300 yard shot. Any thoughts??
     
  11. trb0

    trb0 Well-Known Member

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    Doe's the Shilen barrel use the lock ring like the original Savage barrel? If so, the bedding may be part of your problem.I had a good shooting savage that went bad after glassing the action,but finally figured out that with the wrench grooves in the locking ring that it didn't always return the barrel to the same place due to the wrench grooves in the lock ring.After I removed the glass from around the lock ring it went back to shooting great.What brand and caliber bullet are you using,I'm really interested in your setup.I killed a doe at 410 yards with my savage last year and tinker with mine at longer ranges but a 250 grain SST really pounds you.I would love to find something like yours that would shoot accurate at long range .Good luck Tim Baldwin
     
  12. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    The Bad Bull looks to be very well made. I don't know anyone that has used one.

    I prefer a more streamlined bullet, but I don't doubt that they perform as advertised.

    I have one nagging question about their design. Where I live a muzzleloader is considered unloaded when there is not primer/cap on the rifle. I have not posed the question the the makers of the BB, but how would you get the primer out without firing the rifle?

    edge.

    PS If you buy this rifle let me know how you make out with it.
     
  13. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    Tim, I eliminated the barrel nut entirely.

    The 1 1/4inch barrel shoulder locks the lug in place. The rifle is a solid 12 pounds and shooting a 150 grain AccuBond with a 30 grain sabot @ 3100 fps is a real pussycat.

    Some like a light rifle, but I like to shoot a lot and am happy with the weight.

    edge.
     
  14. trb0

    trb0 Well-Known Member

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    Do you make the sabots yourself?What caliber bullet are you using?Our muzzleloader season is over next week and I might try to build one similar to what you have .Thanks Tim Baldwin