Going to shoot 500 yards tomorrow

Discussion in 'The Basics, Starting Out' started by Dave King, Aug 22, 2003.

  1. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    I've been reading (and refraining from commenting) on a lot of threads on other boards about the problems of shooting 500 yards (and further). Well...tomorrow I'll take my latest hunting rifle and loads up to the mountain and fling some bullets helter-skelter and hope to make a few hits. I may try to film the affair and show just how EASY it is to hit a critter sized target at 500 yards...first round hit by the way. There's really no way to convince folks that it's not "short step yardages" or "luck" but perhaps a few folks can be enlightened...it only takes a few converts at a time to eventually win a bunch of folks over.

    It sure would be nice to get a few folks together that haven't "been there and done that" and take them along as witnesses....or students.

    Anyone else considering something of this sort? Field trial...hunting setup (whatever that may be). Go out of the way to TRY to show that there's no trick photography or target swapping....

    Sure seems a shame that folks won't believe what's right before their eyes.... and free to learn just by listening a bit.
     
  2. *WyoWhisper*

    *WyoWhisper* Guest

    Dave,

    Actually....

    Boyd, Butch and Myself, my guiding partner and his friend from Casper are doing a LR Antelope Hunt in Casper this Sept. I have purposfully invited 3 other guys who have not done any LR hunting!. I will set up their rifles and make sure the rifles are up to the task let them practice at the Cody Complex and then we will take them hunting LR style to capture ALL of it on tape!!
    Then Butch and Boyd will try their hand and LR Western Style on the Speed Goats as well. I believe this will be part of his next video.. we are also going to try some real long range PD stuff if the weather cooperates...
    I hope in time to use parts of the footage to "prove" that it is capable, safe and ethical for anyone if done properly....
     

  3. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    Dave, good luck with your trip. Saying that LR shooting is not plausible is like saying 40ft putts can't happen. Well both happen with very little to do with luck.

    I have had the opportunity to take quite a few shooters out over the last two years to show them LR shooting. Most have been stunned but have been willing to put in the time and effort to make their guns shoot that far.

    In fact, one is a lot better then I am right now. Hate when that happens.

    When you throw in beliefs, ethics and morals, you can forget about any logical discussion. It isn't worth the effort and nothing ever gets resolved. So for many, I simply accept our differences and move on.

    Sort of like abortion, and same sex marriage. No matter which side of the discussion you are on...you are right or at least believe so.

    Jerry
     
  4. HighLander

    HighLander Member

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    And you know what? Long range shooting is loads of fun and practical as well. If you can shoot good at 500, sure makes that 200 yard shot easier doesn't it? I have a friend that thinks a 100-150 yard shot with a .270 is a long shot and he is afraid, uncomfortable, and not confident unless under 100. I am glad he knows his limitations. Good Luck!
     
  5. Kevin

    Kevin Well-Known Member

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    Great Idea Dave!

    I see so many hunters who have this magical number of 500yards ingrained in their minds. That somehow it is so much harder to hit something at 500 yards, or that their rifle does not have enough power to do the job or their scope does not have enough magnifiction. When really they are just not using their equipments full capability.
     
  6. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    I did the 500 yard thing...got some useful data to 500 for my 6.5 x 284 load. I used computer generated data for the shoot and will adjust (fine tune) off that. They're all fine kill shots...some will argue that I'd have missed a head shot at 400 and 500 (there's always one that's gotta have something to bitch about).

    Didn't have time to shoot any more...took my 243 but brought it back un-fired. Too many honey-do items at home to stay away too long (and I want next weekend off).

    I'll score and link the target(s) tomorrow.

    Hell... changed my mind.

    These were shot after being stapled to a 4'x8' ft piece of plywood. The load was 140 Hornady A-Max and 51 grain of H4831, new un-fired Lapua brass.

    I didn't have any data for this rifle or load and elected to use the 300 Win Mag 190 Sierra Gold Medal Match come-ups (computer generated @ 2900fps BC .525)... I did this mainly to show that 500 yard shooting is really an easy affair even with "nearly accurate" data. (I know the 6.5 x 284 is about the same in trajectory as the 190 GMM 300 Win...that's one reason I shoot it.) I had a young fella with me...he helped out and ranged the target(s) as we moved downrange... we couldn't get a 300 yard shot and shot from a berm at 325 yards plus or minus a few (I used the 300 yard come-ups anyway). There was a bit of wind... I used .5 MOA Left every once in a while... for 400 and 500 yards there was a double wind, left from about 200 to the target and right from me to about 300 yards...there was a tree line between 300 and 200 and this caused the double wind...there was also a rise/ridge there and at 400 and 500 I shot through a significant mirage (I was shooting very close to the top of the intermediate rise/ridge).

    The black circles on this targets are about 1 MOA for the range shot... 3 inches at 300 yards, 5 inches a 500 yards. (other than 300 yards)... no shots were more than 1 MOA from the intended Point of Impact (POI) and all groups were at or under 1 MOA in size. There were no sighters and no re-tries...all shots were fired from "MY" field (hunting) position (bipod and sand sock). The numbers indicating LOW/HIGH LEFT/RIGHT are calculated from the measured center of the three (3) shot group. (No animals were injured in the creation of this data...some fossil fuel was burned, lead an copper were released into the environment. Several insects were smashed beyond recognition and one horse fly was knocked about a bit.)

    Here's the targets.

    [​IMG]

    Here's an old picture of the range area...I'm in the impact area in this photo. That tower in the background is just over 650 yards away... the little brown target in the left center of the picture is just about 200 yards away (it's 48 inches tall and 23 inches wide). The little white speck just to the right and up from the 200 yard distant target is 325 yards away...the tree just behind and left of the white speck is right at 500 yards back.

    [​IMG]

    [ 08-25-2003: Message edited by: Dave King ]
     
  7. LeMay

    LeMay Well-Known Member

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    Shit Doc you look good at the Mountain. But only 500 yards? Shooting the short range. I did some .338 Lapua shooting last weekend over here. But I only got to shoot 200 yds not meny long ranges over here in Michigan close to me. I did some plate steel shooting to see how the 338 did on it. 12 inch by 12 inch by 2 inch. It took me 24 rd of the 300 bthp to punch a hole throw it at 200 yds. You going to be up at the mountain for sniper II and III?

    LeMay OUT
     
  8. ewallace

    ewallace Well-Known Member

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    LeMay
    What load are you using in your 338 lapua I just got back from shooting I was shooting 400 meters testing loads for my 338 imp
    Crow Mag
     
  9. LeMay

    LeMay Well-Known Member

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    Crow Mag I am shooting the 300 gr matchking lapua brass 87 gr Vit 560 fed 215 match primer. Dont know the speed, dont have a cronno. I'm guessing at about 2750. but it groups one ragged hole at 100 yds. I'm looking for some 338 AP to do some testing on cars and light trucks. You know of any one sell AP for the .338? Thanks

    LeMay OUT
     
  10. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    Great images Dave, we did a similar drop thing but had a 12 foot tall backboard and put the aiming point at the very top, then moved in one hundred yard increments to get actual bullet drops. Shot from 100 to 700 and got some nice info. Sure nice to compare drop and accuracy as you change distances the way you did.
    Looks a little hot and muggy. We don't have any vegetation where we shoot, lets us reach out a bunch more, but a lot of wind.
    Nice shooting.
     
  11. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    I like it Dave. I don't get more plain and simple than that, I'd call that consitancy, and eye opening for many too.

    I've done the same thing with a handfull of friends, mostly two and three hundred yard, not too much practicing in there schedual type. Others have pulled up and BS'd with me about it while on the river bar shooting out to 800 and 1000 yards. The first comment from the stopper by types is, "how far away IS that?"

    My friends actually get to see the whole session, start to finish, and leaves no doubt with them.

    One friend of mine is pretty serious about learning the ins and outs of it, and is getting a grasp on the basics pretty well and getting into the deeper stuff a little bit more now.

    He only started taking this LR stuff seriously after shooting with me "several times" and learning it wasn't luck, a good day at the range, no sighters needed, etc. He finally see's that if he puts the time and "money" into learning and practicing, he can do it to... he's naturally an excellent shot BTW, don't see that too often.

    Getting guys past the point they've learned drops and how to compensate for them with their scope turrets using MOA is one of the big hurdles, or at least it I've found that to be true. MOA seems to confuse the hell out of most beginners and I think they just turn their brain off when they here it and think it's too complicated at that point to try and follow a conversation with even its mention. I admit, it took me a while to grasp how to correct for bullet drop at distances other than 100yds using MOA corrections.

    When you first explain bullet drop and MOA correction to someone that's not heard the term, or to even someone that has but doesn't understand it, you can almost instantly see a look on their face that seems to indicate they think this is WAY COMPLICATED stuff here, and it simply ISN'T.

    Showing someone as you have, then getting them figuring out their own drops, dialing in their own corrections and seeing the results on the target is the fastest way for them to SEE it's all too simple, even for them.


    Some LR hunters will always leave us on very shaky ground, ethics wise. Ignoring the affects that changing winds will cause is one variable that any short range hunter takes lightly, when it comes to POI vs. POA.

    Another is that the SR hunters group size at his normal killing range is far less an issue, a LR hunters is extremely important and "must" be known and used, along with other "varying" factors to base his maximum consistant killing range on.

    Dave clearly demonstrates the possibility IS reality, on any given day within reason. [​IMG]

    The arguement of LR being shooting, and not hunting will never go away, I leave it be, as it is simply subjective and most believe what they will on it.

    The other arguements concerning shot placement and the percent chances of hits at LR are pretty cut and dry. Simple math usually decides who's full of BS in any situation when the facts are known, and anyone can see which stance holds up, or fails miserably.

    I feel we have an obligation to our game and sport both, to stay well within our abilities, no matter how far we'd "like" to make a shot on game... we give em ammo against us all when we don't.

    Dave, I hope you post this pic on every "can't do" thread concerning LR hunting you happen upon, aught to shut a few of them up or at least tone em down a bit. [​IMG]
     
  12. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    LeMay

    I only wanted to shoot 500 yards in 100 yard increments. Hard to find a spot for a target up there so that it can bee seen every hundred yards...I put it at the slag pile and still had trouble at 300 yards (shot from the movers' 300 yard berm).

    Take care shooting mild steel...that crater steel needs some place to go!

    Have you tried Reloader25...might be worthwhile for you to give it a try...my data won't do you much good so start with the reloading manual suggestion(s).

    I'd like to make it up to the mountain for Sniper II and/or Sniper III but work is going to be a problem (isn't it always!). I'll probably go up one or two days and play... I'd like to do the stalk(s), been a while since I've had my ghillie on (I'll bet there are some crusty old dried up briars in that suit somewhere...I hate those damn aged thorns). Rod has a helo now... no rotor and tailboom on the assembly (yet)... guess he'll use it for rapelling as soon as he gets it to the top of the tower (???), be a pretty short drop now...once you're horizontal your nose is in the grass.

    Ian

    That picture of me is from last year... I'm a LOT more handsome now [​IMG]. It was pretty nice this last trip, only about 82 and lower humidity. The vegitation makes for a difficult time... at 500 yards I needed to wait for the wind to blow some branches out of the way so I could see the target...the round was about 20 inches above line-of-sight at the point where the branches were obstructing my view so no obstacle for the bullet...just couldn't see the target very often. Lots of mirage at the 400 and 500 yard event...shooting just at the top of the rise at 325 yards from the target...oh well, that's how it really happens so we deal with it.


    Brent

    My intent as you know was just to show (there'll always be folks that say it isn't this simple or I "created the data") how simple it is to shoot to a kill zone at distance to 500 yards. This is NOT Rocket Science... once we get past a few misconceptions and those tricky terms; MOA and NO HOLDOVER.

    I have taught a few folks...generally one or two a year take on shooting and hunting with enhanced capabilities (don't dare say Long Range [​IMG]). The biggest problem I have is getting folks AWAY from their buddies and the 100 yard 2" high mentality long enough to show them how it can be done...every shot.

    (There's always the spouse problem too... folks just gotta have custom rifles sooner or later after taking this up and that's a fair bit of money!)

    Getting a grasp on that MOA thing is a problem for a lot of folks...once they have it mastered it's a simple matter as you say. It's just hard to fathom the difficulty in switching to angular from linear measure.

    Feel free to link to this thread is you think it will be of any value...
     
  13. Kevin

    Kevin Well-Known Member

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    Possibly the best way to show someone how simple it is to hit things at long range is to just get them out there and shoot.

    My cusin was here who is 20 year old girl. She had never shot a rifle before. So what do I do? Set up some milk jugs and moved right back to 500 yards. Taught her the basics (safty, how the rifle works, ect.). Then I just said put the crosshairs in the middle and squeeze the trigger very gently. She not only hit the jug but the shot was only about 1" from the center (on her very first shot ever!), we shot a few more and she never missed one. So if someone who has never shot before can go out there and consistently hit jugs at 500yards the average shooter should have no trouble.
     
  14. LeMay

    LeMay Well-Known Member

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    Ya Doc 100 yard icrements are hard to do at the mountain. Its more set up for shooting at unknown distance. Not know distance.
    At the range I was shooting the mild steel at is dug in the side of a hill. So the splash has good back stops on the sides for that.
    Have not tryed the Reloader 25 yet.I got this load from Doc, Meats freind. From VA, and its what he and Meat shoot out of their 338s. It is working well in my rifle.
    I'm going to be up their for sniper II and III. Work is sometimes a problem. But I work for the gov and my boss lets me have time off to go play. The sniper III class looks like its going to be a lot of fun. going to work those guys butts off. Looks like 16 guys that will be 8 two man teams. And sniper II is all full 30 guys that will be a lot of shooting and stalking. It will be a great time for all. And hopefully it will rain. I just love to train in the rain.
    Crusty old dried up briars in your ghille thats what makes them work so well. Real camo.
    New helo assaembly [​IMG] SWEET!! on top of the rapel tower. I see it now, fast ropeing with full pack and sniper weapon system. Or he might angel it so we could shoot the movers at 600yd. Looks like next summer will be a blast up at the mountian.
    I see alot of that 2 inch high at a 100yds and I'm ready to go hunt too. Or the guy thats happy he can hit a paper plate 6 out 10 times at a 100yds. We have this range on the west side of the state with a 500 m range. I like to take Nate and Rae over their a week or two befor deer deason and shoot. We put up some head plates at 500 m and start shooting. Down down range when their is cease fire and paint targets. About that time you have have half the shooters over to see what you are shooting. And then start doing some simultaneous haed shots at 500 m. Like you do for glass shooting and it realy gets them talking.
    If these guy would sent more time on the range they would shoot beter. You would think if a guy that was going to spend $4.000 to go out west to hunt. He would spend $500 and take a class to learn to shoot long range. Just my 2 cents worth.

    LeMay OUT