Flat shooting Elk gun?

[Fiftydriver]

Sniper2,

Yes it should be an impressive little round. We will see, there are alot of good ideas on paper that really never product once bullets start to fly but the smaller Allen Mags have topped our performance goals so I expect to see the same with the 7mm.

I agree, flatter shooting does not equate to most accurate but from seeing how well the other heavy weight ULDs Wildcats are shooting I am not the least bit concerned about this.

The 300 gr ULDs are shooting very well, have shot several sub 14" groups at one mile with them and groups at 500 yards are generally in the 1" to 1 1/4" range.

I have yet to test the 350 gr pills at ranges past 500 yards but at that range they shoot nearly identical to the lighter 300 gr pills. I am shooting a 1-10 twist so we will see how they do at extreme range as far as stability goes. IF they are stable at 500 yards I suspect they will be fine.

Accuracy wise, at least in my 338 Kahn, the Wildcats hold tighter average groups at 500 yards then the Sierra Mk bullets. Both shoot very well as the Sierra will hold 1.5" groups but I have shot enough 3/4" groups with the wildcats at 500 yards to know these are the only bullets I will use in my Kahn.

To avoid the B.C. argument again, they also shoot a few inches flatter out to 500 yards then teh Sierra bullets when both are zeroed at the same 100 yard point. So take that for what its worth.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Tommy,

Don't know yet, they are still a prototype bullet. I will ask Richard next time I talk with him and see what he thinks for a price.

Good SHooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

Sniper2,

It should be very impressive but as I said, their just paper numbers right now. Does not mean anything until actual range results produce these numbers!!!

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Guest]

Fifity.. not trying to rain on your parade so please don't take offense....These Allen mags seem impressive.. but let me offer this...

7mm is a margnal bullet dia. for Elk... I think there is alot to say about "thinner" bullets on 600lb+ animals... for deer sized game they are very well suited... and this 7 Allen mag could be a real nice LR deer rifle....

I don't have any "hard" data to prove this other than being a big game guide and watching guys with the "7mmMag" taking shot after shot... to stop the Bull... I would personally prefer the .30 and .338 cal bullets.... I guess I see "frontal area" of the bullet to be and improtant factory in stopping power...

thougths....??

 

[ss7mm]

Ric: Come on Ric, given your experience you know as well as I that bullet construction and placement, as well as the animals state of agitation/adrenalin flow, is most often the deciding factor.

I shot a 6 point bull elk at 90 yards a few years back with .338 Win Mag and 250 grain bullet. One shot behind shoulder and he went down but got back up. Second shot through front shoulder and he went down again but got back up. Bullet performance was as expected and shoulders were broken but he managed to somehow get up. Third shot through front shoulder again put him down finally. This doesn't make the 338 mag a bad or insufficient cartridge for elk, it's just that the bull was excited, had been running and was all pumped up and decided he didn't really want to die. I just had to convince him otherwise.

I have taken several elk with 7mm mags and none have taken more than one shot. This doesn't make the 7mm better than the 338 mag it just means that all of the shots were properly placed on reasonably calm, unexcited elk.

I once watched a "hunter" with a 300 Weatherby, using 200 grain bullets, shoot and shoot and shoot at and into a bull elk. After 6 shots and 6 hits the bull finally went down for good. Range from the hunter to the elk was less than 150 yards. This doesn't make the 300 Weatherby an inadequate round for elk it just meant that the shooter was not capable of hitting the side of a barn if he was on the inside of said barn. No game animal should be subjected to being turned into swiss cheese like he did to that bull.

"Thinner" bullet??? 308 minus 284 means the unexpanded, frontal area, of the 7mm is .024" smaller than the 30 cal bullets. Hardly enough to worry about.

Frontal area of expanded 7mm vs. 30 cal bullets can be a toss up depending on the bullet used. I have always used heavy bullets in my 7mm's designed for heavy game. I would agree that the 7mm with lighter, deer class bullets, would not be my choice for elk sized animals but I feel that the 7mm with proper bullet selection is entirely up to the task at hand when hunting elk.

Run the numbers, like Kirby said, and you'll see that the 7mm with Richard's 200 grain bullets in his new 7mm AM will make the 30's and 338's take a hind seat to the ballistically better round.

The 7mm AM with lighter bullets would not be my choice, no matter how fast it is, for elk, but I see Kirby's new round as one that will give hunters and shooters something that will perform on anything from varmints to elk and moose as long as the proper bullet is used. And it will be able to do it at ranges far beyond most people's abilities.

You said "thoughts ??" and these are mine. Take it for what it's worth because it's just my opinions and we all know about opinions and that other thing that everyone has. Everyone has them.

The thing is that everyone has their right to their opinions. I would just hope that when it comes to picking and using cartridges and bullets for elk, or for that matter any game animal, that people would consider everything when making their decisions. Use a cartridge/gun combination that will deliver a properly selected bullet for the animal you are hunting at a velocity for the range used that will give the terminal performance that will harvest the animal cleanly and humanely. Then they should limit their shots to a range that means they are assured of their bullet placement.

This much thought about Kirby's 7mm and it's capabilities has me thinking. Maybe I'll talk to him about one.

Thoughts......???

 

[sniper2]

I know of several people that shot the 7/300WBY. made by Leonard Sheffield of Rome,Ga. that killed several elk I'm thinking bullet design and placement will go a long way in stopping the big critters having said this I prefer the .338
sized bullets.

 

[bailey1474]

[ QUOTE ]
This much thought about Kirby's 7mm and it's capabilities has me thinking. Maybe I'll talk to him about one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Already have. Pending the results of his testing, I will be getting one. Even if the BC on the Wildcat bullet is lower than projected, this round will be hard to beat for a long range hunting rig.

 

[ricka0]

Ah, the unending debate. Everyone agrees bullet placement is the most important. My brother shot several elk with his .243 before my dad bought him a 30-06. But does anyone really believe it's safe to hunt Griz with a .243?
My Brother was elk hunting with his .243 one year and also had a black bear tag. He came across a <font color="red"> HUGE </font> bear and hi tailed it back to the cabin. If he had a 7mm or 30-06 he would have taken it.

 

[Guest]

I musta missed the bullet weight of 200 grs from a 7mm...

Where is a link and product description of these bullets?

How are they constructed?

I totally agree shot placement is everything... thats why I don't worry much about screaming velocities... don't care if my 308 shoots like a rainbow... cause I know how to shoot it... ya know what I mean....

not trying to **** in someones cornflakes or beef stew ( depending when ya read this ) I'm just saying the 7mm bullets were 150, 160's and now 175's... they are still just a little "light" for me and 600LB animals...

I would much rather have a BIG slow bullet than a little fast one for killing game animals....

as you said opinons and every body has 'em... just my opinion is that the 7mm is light for Elk....

having said that... Chris is more than likely building me a 7mmWSM for Deer and Antelope.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[ss7mm]

Ric:

Richard Graves
E-mail Address: [email protected]
Address: Alberta, Canada
Phone: 780-352-8592


This is in Kirby's post above:
"It depends on what bullets you order from Richard as to how long it will take you to get your order.

What I would recommend with the Wildcat bullets is that since they are totally custom bullets meaning they are generally made to your specific order, its fine to order a single box or so to test but if you find you want to keep using these bullets, ordering as many as you can is the best idea.

That said, please do not ever take that as meaning Richard does not want or encourage any size order.

Most of the Wildcat Bullets I am using are basically total custom bullets and some are still in a somewhat prototype stage so they can take a while to get made. Bullet jackets are not like ordering a box of Sierras from Midway.

For what Richard offers his customers, the turn around is pretty impressive.

Shipping across the boarder can take a few more days compared to in states orders but this is not a big deal, again, if you find a bullet that you like, order a good amount of them and you will save on both shipping and time."


E-mail or call Richard. He's great to talk with and will pretty much make any bullet you want with the jacket thickness, style and weight you want.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Ric,

I would agree and disagree with you at the same time, see how I play both sides of the fence /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!

If I were intentinally setting up in an area to harvest heavy game at ranges well past 1000 yards I would say that the larger frontal area of the 338 class bullets may have benefits over the 7mm.

Also, on wounded or excited game, the larger frontal area may also have a slight advantage.

But!!

For hunting game out to even 1000 yards when that game is unexcited and calm, I feel a properly built 7mm bullet has more then enough to cleanly and consistantly harvest game up to mature bull elk.

We all know elk are tough critters and we have all seen or heard about instances where they have taken extreme punishment and still put up a fit to get away. Just the nature of the beast. They have a very strong will to live. That said, in my opinion, perhaps the most difficult animal to anchor is a mature whitetail buck in full rut. Now I am talking the norther sub species which routinely weight 300 lbs or more.

I personally have hammered a single whitetail three times in teh chest cavity with a 300 RUM using a 180 gr Ballistic Tip and he regained his feet after each shot. The first took his offside shoulder out and the other two were just behind the shoulder.

Also, I have dropped big mature whitetails with a single neck shot with a whimpy 22-250 at 300 yards and there was hardly even a twitch.

Point is, in the hunting fields, there is no combination of bullet that will drop a big game animal EVERYTIME.

I know an old timer that used a 375 H7H for elk all of his life and loved it. He hunted in heavy cover and semi open country where shots were at max 250 yards and he never lose his bull, he also said he never had one drop at the shot either. He used the 300 gr Parition loaded to just shy of 2600 fps.

In my way of thinking, if you take a quality bullet that is accurte and put it though the vitals of a bull elk, he is dead. He may cover 100 yards, possible a bit more, but he is dead on his feet.

I am not a fan of shooting till the animal is on the ground. I personally have seen where a mortally wounded animal was basically dead on his feet when a second shot was taken and startled the animal into an adreniline rush and created much more of a fuss then was really needed.

One thing to remember is that these 200 gr 7mm bullets intended for game will be built on heavy jackets specifically designed for the velocity range of the 7mm Allen Mag. I do not know if Richard has settled on a jacket thickness yet but I know full well that the production bullets will have no problem venting a bull elk at any range.

We all like numbers here, lets forget about B.C. for a while and talk about a number that actually has much more to do with big game hunting, Sectional Density.

These 200 gr 7mm pills will have a sectional density of .354 which is extremely high. Compare that with a 250 gr .338 bullet at .312 or a 300 gr .375 bullet at just over .300.

Given similiar bullet construction(jacket thickness, alloy and lead alloy) The 7mm will far out penetrate the larger diameter bullets. Some may say that is simply because of frontal area but it is also because of higher S.D.

Also the velocity of the bullet will be much higher as it travels through the target animal which creates a larger area of tissue damage.

If we were talking 160 gr 7mm bullets I would agree with you 100% for long range big game hunting but with these super bullets if you will, they place the 7mm into a totally different catagory of performance ballistically and terminally.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Guest]

I agree with alot of what you had to say....

I made the initial contact with Richard.... my .308 shoots like a house a fire so I doubt I'll touch that one.. but I'd like to see what he has available for the 300WM I have... it shoot the 220SMK's remarkably well ... almost too good /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif but a higher BC might be interesting...

once the 7mm is here he has a bullet I think has caught my attention .. so time will tell...

SD is important... I guess what I need now is some results of these bullets on game animals... are they reliable? DO they work?

thoughts?

 

[Fiftydriver]

Ric,

I agree, field results are the proof mark in my opinion and until they are in the field taking game it is just talk but from what I have experienced with the Wildcat bullets, it is all but a formality.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[budlight]

7mm in the super mags. Any of the bigger cased mags are far superior in speed to their counter parts of yester year. I have a wildcat 7mm STW and the chrono speeds can exceed a 7mm Rem Mag that's blowing the primers out and having to pound open the bolt by @200 fps without any stress.

I don't have the money to shoot 200 grain VLD bullets. So I never designed my two long barreled guns with twist rates to only use them. My 28 inch 7 stw was designed around the 175 grain SPBT's To date no Elk has stopped the bullet and no elk ever moved away from the point of impact. Yes, all four were well placed shots and all four were sub 370 yards. Two were sub 185 yards. All four were just looking or slow moving.