fire-lapping bullets yes or no?

Discussion in 'The Basics, Starting Out' started by 270yotekiller, Aug 15, 2005.

  1. 270yotekiller

    270yotekiller Well-Known Member

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    Beartooth Bullets makes fire-lapping bullets and i was wondering if this is a yay or nay for a new match grade barrel during the barrel break in period used in combination with a sound cleaning regiment? I have heard this actually rips up the throat even more and could possibly lose hundreds/thousands of possible rounds later on down the road?

    any experiences?

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gifThanks
     
  2. daveosok

    daveosok Guest

    David Tubb has some advice on this subject. I wont quote his article as you can go here and read it David Tubb .

    Dave
     

  3. Neverlost1

    Neverlost1 Member

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    I've fire-lapped 2 factory rifles with outstanding results, however, from what I understand, this should only be done to a poorly grouping factory type rifle/barrel, and never-never-never to a custom handlapped barrel. They are already smooth enough and youy would probably ruin it. I believe Tubbs recommends if your factory rifle is shooting good (better than 1-1/2 inch groups?), leave it alone or only use the finest abbrasives to clean it up a bit.

    If you have a hand-lapped barrel use the standard break-in procedure recommended by the barrel maker.
     
  4. DavEDW

    DavEDW New Member

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    I used the Beartooth method with their bullets in my Ruger Blackhawk. It worked great. I was amazed at the few # of shots it took to really show forward progress of the forcing cone. I fired 12 lapping rounds and it really moved things. It did what it was supposed to, less lead, more accuracy, more speed, way easier to clean. The only way I would do it to a centerfire rifle barrel was if it was a rough factory barrel that I was going to rechamber after I was done. A true match grade barrel (Shilen, Hart, etc) are hand lapped already the only roughness you will have is where the smith ran the reamer in, the burrs will only be at the end of the throat were the rifling starts. My Hart barrel quit showing signs of copper after 9 shots, all done with the one shot and clean method. It hasn't coppered since and that was over 500 rnds ago. I would recomend a break in process of one shot and clean for this reason alone.
     
  5. daveosok

    daveosok Guest

    I think I am going to try David Tubbs throat polishing bullets. Even on a custom barrel when you ream the chamber youll have radial tooling marks that are perpendicular to the longitudinal bore resulting in a scraping affect equating to copper loading up the throat area.
    I will give it a shot, David Tubbs site says throat polishing should remove these radial marks making the throat smother in transition resulting is less copper fouling.
    Dave
     
  6. dbhostler

    dbhostler Well-Known Member

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    Factory bbl, yes. Custom bbl, no.
    db
     
  7. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    I would not fire lap any barrel simply because you move the throat forward. What leads you to believe you need such a drastic action? You haven't even shot the barrel.

    Accuracy is determined by the location of that throat and yout bullet. By moving it ahead during fire lapping, you are doing the same thing as lots of firing. Moving the throat defines barrel wear.

    If a barrel copper fouls and that bugs you, polish the bore, maybe a bit in the throat. Fire lapping usually does nothing to polish the second 2/3's of a barrel.

    Personally, I go by what the target tells me, not the cleaning patches.

    I have match barrels that copper foul and production barrels that don't. all shoot very well.
    Jerry
     
  8. daveosok

    daveosok Guest

    David Tubbs recommendations for the TMS polishing system not the fire lapping system.
    [ QUOTE ]
    What this told me and what I further confirmed in my testing was that no matter what kind of a barrel you
    are using or how smooth or polished the bore is, the throat area is going to have annular tool marks from when
    it was chambered. The chamber itself may also have these tool marks, but it is relatively easy to polish the
    chamber, but not the throat. In fact, any polishing of the bore (throat and rifling) should be in the direction
    that the bullet travels. In addition, all rifle barrels have tool marks left down the entire length of the barrel
    from their manufacturing process — these also are annular in design, which mean that as the bullet passes
    down the barrel it encounters each of the marks, much as you encounter speed bumps on a road. With the
    removal or smoothing of these bumps, the barrel shows obvious improvement in accuracy. Further, the overall
    mirror polishing effect of FinalFinish™ greatly reduced the amount of fouling, making cleaning much easier,
    and there also was an added bonus of a velocity increase with an increased powder charge with no increase in
    pressure.
    After researching existing information on this subject, I then conducted my own tests on over 20 different
    firearms which included new factory barrels, used barrels with several hundred to several thousand rounds
    through them, to brand new match barrels which had previously been hand lapped. These test barrels represented
    a wide spectrum of calibers: .22lr, pistol calibers, and rifle calibers.
    Using a barrel holding fixture and trackable bore scope with a video camera and recorder, I was able to
    document the initial condition of the throat and rifling in each of the barrels before starting the FinalFinish™
    process, and also further document what each specific number of rounds with a specific size abrasive did to
    the overall interior finish of each barrel.
    In most all cases after using the initial 50 shot FinalFinish™ series there were still a few of the deeper tool
    marks left, though to a greatly reduced degree (some can never be removed). All of the test barrels exhibited a
    more uniform bore diameter after the FinalFinish™ series, and in all cases less than .0003” (three ten thousands
    of an inch) of metal was removed. All test barrels showed greatly reduced fouling and easier cleaning.
    [One interesting note: when using the bore scope on the exterior of the new factory firearm’s barrel, it was
    smoother than the finish on the inside of the barrel (bore)! This is, of course, before the use of FinalFinish™
    (tells you something about marketing a product...).]
    In accuracy testing with 6 of the rifles (a total of 4 different calibers) of which all had the same handloads
    shot through them before and after the FinalFinish™ series, 5 of the 6 showed accuracy increases of up to
    62%. The barrel which showed no improvement in accuracy was an excellent shooting barrel to begin with
    but it did show greatly extended accuracy (number of rounds before accuracy began to fall off due to fouling
    buildup). In all three of the large caliber revolvers I tested (with factory ammo), all shot groups half the size of
    their original group.
    You should! FinalFinish™ can be of special benefit to “gas guns.” By the way they’re constructed, tight
    spots in the bore are commonplace. These tight spots can be created by the assembly process when the gas system
    parts and muzzle brakes are installed. Plus, many, many gas operated rifles will have a burr that resulted
    from drilling the gas port. FinalFinish™ will uniform the tight spots to uniform bore diameter and easily
    remove any such burrs. Plus, since a gas-operated rifle can’t have its barrel set back and rechambered to overwrite
    throat erosion, continued use of the FinalFinish™ system will help sustain accuracy over a longer barrel
    life. Also, there is absolutely no danger in using FinalFinish™ in a chrome lined barrel. It will uniform and
    polish just like any other (there is less than 0.0003 inches of metal removed).

    [/ QUOTE ]
    .0003 aint gonna make a bit of difference.
     
  9. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I would not fire lap any barrel simply because you move the throat forward.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    While this is true of the NECO firelapping kit, it is not true of the FF TMS system. I have done a thorough experiment on two custom barrels now and have written a thread about them under equipment reviews titled, "Tubb's TMS part one". Part two is completed and I will be putting it on this forum as soon as time permits next week!



    [ QUOTE ]
    What leads you to believe you need such a drastic action? You haven't even shot the barrel.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I have personally witnessed several dozen out of the box rifles broken in exclusively with the FF product and all of them shoot well and are WAY smoother than they started out and have fewer tight spots and are absolutely more uniform in friction on the patch.




    [ QUOTE ]
    Accuracy is determined by the location of that throat and yout bullet

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Partially true. More importantly is the <font color="blue"> CONDITION </font> of the throat. Loads can be tailored to shoot in any relation in distance to the throat (near or far from it) but the condition is the key factor and FF absolutely smoothes it out.


    [ QUOTE ]
    By moving it ahead during fire lapping, you are doing the same thing as lots of firing. Moving the throat defines barrel wear.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Partially true again. You can define erosion as lengthening the throat, but more exactly, the roughness is a better indicator. A quick view through a borescope can show sometimes that the throat may be in the same place, but it might have a dry lakebed look to it and that would let you know the condition of the throat.




    [ QUOTE ]
    Fire lapping usually does nothing to polish the second 2/3's of a barrel.


    [/ QUOTE ]


    Usually that is correct, but FF will absolutely make the whole barrel shiny not just the first 1/3. I will try and get some pics of these two barrels for my post and you will see that they are like mirrors. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



    [ QUOTE ]
    Personally, I go by what the target tells me, not the cleaning patches.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That is all fine and dandy, but when it takes you all day to clean your tack driver it puts you out of the next several relays or makes it so all your buddies get all the chucks instead of being in on the action because you're over on the tailgate scrubbing your guts out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  10. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    goodgrouper, most interesting indeed. As always, paradigms change with new technology.

    Will have to look into this.

    As to accuracy and fouling, I have shot many rifles where the bores looked like copper pipes yet still shot 1/4MOA. Subsurface fouling doesn't affect accuracy much if any.

    So I don't believe in spotless barrels giving the best performance. In fact, there are several rifles I simply do not clean. At over 200rds, they are still shooting at their best. Cleaning them causes accuracy to go south big time.

    Others prefer being "clean".

    So you need to test and evaluate what your particular barrel wants. For the guy that takes all day to clean their barrel, they are simply using the wrong technology.

    There is no barrel, including sidewalk rough WWI and WWII barrels that I could not clean in 10 to 15 min. Just use the right type of solvents/cleaners and voila all is well.

    For heavy copper foulers, the two best cleaners are concentrated ammonia and JB non embedding cleaner. For those who fear ammonia (fear unwarranted), JB will work just as well, not stink, but messier. Polishes the barrel a bit too.

    I have done this to smooth out several barrels and copper fouling was greatly reduced. That is one big reason I don't bother with firelapping with it's inherent problems (at least the old tech). Hand polishing does the same thing with zippo risks (if instructions are followed properly of course).

    Jerry
     
  11. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    For heavy copper foulers, the two best cleaners are concentrated ammonia and JB non embedding cleaner.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Also a new technology improvement is Coppermelt. I have JB's and ammonia in my arsenal of cleaning agents and they haven't had the dust wiped off of them since finding out about Coppermelt. It is ten times faster and way less messy than jb's.
     
  12. sewwhat89

    sewwhat89 Well-Known Member

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    goodgrouper

    can you tell me where I can get coppermelt? I've used wipeout with good success, but it can be quite messy.
     
  13. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    Payson Sports and Trophy
    801-465-2551

    Tell em goodgrouper sent ya!