Finally went beyond 1000 yards

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by BrentM, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. BrentM

    BrentM Well-Known Member

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    The furthest this rifle had been shot at distance with the night force scope was at 970 yards and it was only 2 rounds. Horrible mirage that day and not worth shooting anymore. I shot several groups at 800 to get everything dialed in and confirmed. Had a hunter come in and had him shoot at 580 yards and he was dead on. I even got the windage right that time.

    So yesterday my sweet Ami and I went out scouting and I wanted her to give this new set up a try. I found a rock with a little snow patch on it at 1050 yards and she let it fly. First round a tad low at 6 oclock. Second round dead on, perfect. Both shots would have killed an elk or deer. WOW. She was all grins at this point. My first shot was at 9 oclock and 6 inches left. Second round was dead on. hmmmm so I found out she held 2 to 3 MOA right. She said she thought I told her to do and since she tends to shoot left of center with my set ups, I am a left handed, she naturally held right. I corrected for wind the second time and was dead on.

    Windage is my weak point for sure. So the wind was blowing quartering to from the right at 9 mph with little gusts from 6-9. I used 5 mph and 15 degrees to muzzle. That gave me a .5 MOA. Clearly I was wrong. I was given the advice a little bit ago to use 45 degrees and actual wind speed. That would have been really really close to spot on for a hunting situation. Man, I am still learning this LR stuff and it is super fun. This site sure makes it easier as well. Thanks guys.
     
  2. Canadian Bushman

    Canadian Bushman Well-Known Member

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    Good shooting. Dont sweat it the wind takes me to school on a regular basis.
     

  3. shortpants

    shortpants Well-Known Member

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    It's an awesome feeling when it all comes together! Congrats!
     
  4. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    Man that's great. Contrats for you both.

    The more long range shooting you do the more you will learn just how right you are about the wind being the biggest thing to overcome. Fortunately the more long range shooting you do in varied locations, conditions etc the better you will become at coming up with good wind corrections.

    The hardest part to deal with is the fact that often the wind will vary in direction, rise/fall, and velocity at several different points during the bullets flight.

    All the fancy gear in the world will not solve that issue for you. It just takes practice until you get "the feel for it".

    I try to keep it simple and just come up with an average velocity and % affect due to angle and have done pretty well with it. I've also been shooting in lots of wind since I was a kid and even with many thousands of rounds down range in the wind some days I flat miss a read and end up scratching my head.

    Congrats again, you're off to a great start.
     
  5. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

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    The most common mistake I see in the field, and this includes myself, is that we tend to want to call the wind at an average or to the lighter side. Always remember the wind will be stronger up where the bullet will ark. Also if shooting across a canyon or a valley in the terrain wind will usually be stronger in the middle that it is from the point of fire. Try using the highest reading you see on the kestrel instead of an average and see how that works out. It is not a perfect solution, there are many variables, but this has helped me and some of the shooters I have taught.

    Also, after the shot if you are off for windage, study for a minute why you were off. See if you can figure out where you missed the possibly hidden wind. This will surely sharpen skills in time.

    Jeff
     
  6. BrentM

    BrentM Well-Known Member

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    All good points. When she was shooting and just before the wind was mostly in our face and perhaps 10-15 degrees from the right. After I shot I thought it through and checked the wind again. It was definetly in the 35 degree mark. The rock was on the right side of a gully, on a finger that fed that gully, in a large bowl shaped area. Being a pilot I recall much of the training regarding mountain features and how the wind may rise or fall depending on the features. Ya know, back sides vs front sides of fingers, ridges etc. I think shooting across the canyons, gullys, ravines etc presents a unique challenge as the wind has less influence from the obstacle of the earth.

    Another perfect example of a wind issue was with my wolf hunter. On the top end of the ridge and coming down the finger the wind was stout and at about 45 degrees from our target. Hiking down the ridge about 1100 yards the wind was more at a 90 to 100 degree mark if using the same reference direction of a target. On the front side of the finger the wind was blowing 16-19 mph. On the back side it was blowing 3-5 and swirling.

    So if you were on the front side would you shoot the wind reading 16-19 and on the back side would you shoot the wind reading 3-5?
     
  7. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    Out to 600yds an "average" works out pretty well.

    From 600-1,000 that changes a bit though, and beyond 1,000yds it changes a great deal.

    The slower the bullet is moving the greater the effect of wind in changing it's flight path so when trying to figure out a correction I weight the wind over the last half of the flight a little higher than the first half out to 600 and weight the last 2/3 more heavily beyond that.

    If I'm putting together a long shot and have time I try to sketch out the changes I see and approximate ranges to come out with my weighting.
     
  8. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

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    The first wind has the greatest effect on the bullet path. The first wind starts the trajectory off path earlier and it will continue off path from point of aim / to point of impact growing with distance. The last wind drift the bullet encounters will have the least effect. Drift is an equivalent to BC. I have actually seen bullets gain BC as they slow. I do not feel there is a given that a bullet has to loose BC as it slows.

    Jeff
     
  9. BrentM

    BrentM Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. That is the opposite of what I was taught. For example if you shoot 1000 yards. Break it down to first 500 and second 500. The bullet travels the first 500 quicker and is less effected by the wind due less flight time. The bullet is effected more during the second half as it takes longer to travel the same distance.

    Good info though. Need to test the shots on each side of gully I guess. LOL.
     
  10. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

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    Imagine a "V" The sooner the bullet starts off path the greater it will be from point of aim. If there is no wind at the gun and a wind drift starts at the 1/2 way mark the distance from point of aim will be less than if it started earlier. Once the course of flight is upset the distances keeps increasing. The earlier it starts the greater it will be as distance increases.

    Jeff
     
  11. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    While Broz and I may weight things differently for wind variance he's got a solid point.

    Any error over the first hundred yards is going to double or close to it with each hundred yards traveled.

    As far as changing BC's the more streamlined the bullet (VLD's vs "hunting bullets")the more stable it is at high velocity and the more problems it's going to have as it approaches transonic. It's the same reason we had so many problems with our early supersonic fighter programs since many of them became extremely unstable as they slowed down and were bears to control at best at sub sonic speeds.

    Broz and I may not always agree on how to get things done, but we're both very good at getting the job done so his input is always well worth considering. Hell even I learn something from him once in a while.:D The list of people I truly respect and admire is pretty short and he's on it.
     
  12. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    My general experience on the latter point is actually similar.

    More or less what I see is that the flat and more rounded nosed bullets gain BC as they slow but that the longer more pointed bullets tend to lose it and the more pointed and streamlined the bullet the more rapid the BC deterioration occurs.

    It's also generally seemed to me that the wind has a greater effect at longer ranges which tends to be proved out with the ballistic data.

    If you take a given bullet and plot it's wind corrections across a 1,000yds shot by breaking the shot into three separate shots using the calculated velocities at MV-330, 330-660, and 660-1,000 I think with most bullets we use you'll see what I mean.


    The following table is provided as a "cheat sheet" that you can tape to your gun.
    [​IMG]
    Your Round 180 gr. 0.5 B.C.
    Range Muzzle3006009001200
    Trajectory -1.5-9.2-62.9-187.2-424.5
    Come UP in MOA 02.91019.933.8
    Come UP in Mils 00.82.95.89.8
    Wind Drift 05.222.757114.1
    Wind Drift in MOA 01.63.66.19.1
    Wind Drift in Mils 00.51.11.82.6
     
  13. BrentM

    BrentM Well-Known Member

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    I see your point regarding the initial movement of the bullet and how it is effected down range. Similar to flinching, pushing, jerking the trigger, a little at the muzzle is a lot at the target and it becomes greater with distance.

    This video is how I was taught by the same instruction standards. However, I do believe you have valid points and all these things add up.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p026Y0WUy6Q"]Wind Estimation and Compensation - Rifle Shooting Technique - NSSF Shooting Sportscast - YouTube[/ame]
     
  14. redneckclimbing

    redneckclimbing Well-Known Member

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    Question for you experienced guys out there. Is wind drift affected by B.C. in that the lower the B.C. the faster the bullet slows down and the longer it is in flight being affected by the wind?

    For example, could drift be calculated by the mass of the bullet and it's time of flight, or is there something to the shape of the bullet as well?

    Case in point, if you had two bullets of the same shape / weight, but one (somehow) had a lower B.C. would they have the same amount of drift at the same time in flight. Even though the lesser B.C. bullet would not have carried as far due to velocity loss?

    Thanks (if you followed all of that),