Federal GM210M vs CCI BR-2 LR Primers

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by THOMAST, Jul 16, 2006.

  1. THOMAST

    THOMAST Well-Known Member

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    I was running low on Federal GM210M primers (stupid stupid!) and the local dealers were out of stock also, so I tried a packet of the CCI Bench Rest primers in my 7mm08.(Been using Federals since day one, about 15years ago and figured if it aint broke , dont fix it!)
    I loaded 30 rounds, 20 with the Federals and 10 with the CCI primers, keeping the rest on the load identical.
    Shot 2 10 shot groups at 200 meters with 2 minutes cooling time between shots, one group with CCI and another with the Federals.
    I found the the CCI bench rest primers gave me a tighter group than the Federals, about 1.4 inches 10 shot group with the CCI and at 1.9 inches with Federal at 200 meters(219 yds)
    Is this the norm, or just luck? One cannot really form an opinion from just 20 shots, So I'm asking for your opinions please.

    So which primers do I go for?
     
  2. sewwhat89

    sewwhat89 Well-Known Member

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    I played with different primers with my 300 RSAUM shooting 185 gr Berger VLDs. The velocity variation between WLR, BR2, GM210M, RP9.5M and WLRM was less than 30 fps. There was a difference in groups. I too was shooting from 200m, but I was using 3 shot groups. I got the tightest group with the RP9.5M primers.

    With my 300 WM, I loaded up some 175 gr SMKs, and the BR2s shot tighter groups, but with the 190 SMKs, GM210M primers shot best groups. The 190 Berger VLDs shot best with RP9.5M primers.

    Bottom line, you have to test until you are satisfied that you have done sufficient work on your "best" load. I would use the BR2s if they shot better. Your 1 10-shot group would be fine with me to switch, but I would continue to watch and see if it holds to make a pattern of supremecy. There's my opinion.
     

  3. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    [ QUOTE ]

    Is this the norm, or just luck? One cannot really form an opinion from just 20 shots, So I'm asking for your opinions please.
    So which primers do I go for?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    One cannot really form an opinion from just 20 shots? Sure you can!

    So which primers do I go for? Of the two you mention I don't think it makes much difference. If you're shooting longer than 300 yds the primer producing the smallest ES and SD would be the selection.

    You may want to try CCI-200s and see what they do. you may be supprised......
     
  4. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

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    I'm with Roy, group size is only half of the equation.i'm more partial to ES.
     
  5. Meister

    Meister Well-Known Member

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    I've tried the BR2's in several calibers and they seem to really shine in the 308 cart. Everything else seems to like the GMM the same or better. I've been told that the CCI's are harder and have a milder but more consistant charge. My testing did support this info. I know I've shot groups of 5 with velocity spread of 8fps, and that was what sold me. The lot to lot variation seems to be smaller as well. I don't reccommend them with slower powders, never had good results. My 308 rifles really like the BR2's with 44.6g of Varget. This is a warm load so please reduce and work up to it for safety's sake.
     
  6. halvey

    halvey Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    My 308 rifles really like the BR2's with 44.6g of Varget. This is a warm load so please reduce and work up to it for safety's sake.

    [/ QUOTE ] What brass are you using for this?
     
  7. Meister

    Meister Well-Known Member

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    Federal GMM or Lapua... 175 SMK's as well
     
  8. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I'm with Roy, group size is only half of the equation.i'm more partial to ES. And Roy says: If you're shooting longer than 300 yds the primer producing the smallest ES and SD would be the selection.


    [/ QUOTE ]I'm not with either of these guys.

    I and many others have shot 20-shot groups at long range using ammo producing the lowest spread or standard deviation in both muzzle velocity and peak pressure only to have its groups three times as large as ammo having medium spreads in these two internal ballistic elements. This all happened with different barrel weights and tapers. If the name of the game is accuracy, that's all that counts.

    Folks testing the ammo thought that something was happening to the bullets from that ammo with very uniform internal ballistics when fired that caused poor accuracy.
     
  9. Jimm

    Jimm Writers Guild

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    Yupp! ,

    I've seen that very thing myself. Daaaang Bart ! we are on the same page on something /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    On the serious side I appreciate your freely exchanged and hard earned experience.

    Jim B.
     
  10. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    GeeWizz I finally get in tune with Dave and fall out of grace with Bart and jimm. Gloom, disspare and agony on me.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Sorry Dave I just can't help myself at times.....

    Here's my experience.

    two rifles and maybe 400 total shots through both. 100 through the 270 and 300 through the 338 WIN.

    The 270 WIN w/27" lilja barrel spits the 140gr bullets out at +/-5 FPS for the most part (average)always less than 9 FPS extreme spread. Note that's for 3 shot groups as I am impatient enough to not go to 5 shot groups due to barrel heat. But as I logged a greater number of 3 shot groups the numbers maintained the average SD and ES.

    Time after time the 640yd milk jug was dead on the first shot (I cheated and shot on only low wind days.) This rifle is capabable of 200yd groups less than 50% in size of the 338 Win groups which hung around 1/2MOA.

    The 338 extreme velocity spreads were on the order of +/- 20 FPS and greater. Standard deviation of a number of groups was double digits.

    Overlaying several338 Win 200 yd groups resulted in a somewhat but really definite eliptical/oval shape narrow at top and bottom. But hey groups way small so I was happy. Really impressed the neighbors.

    When I stuck the steel yote out in the area of 800yds I was chasing shots up and down and never hitting. When I put 5 shots in a large paper target at that distance the group spread was all vertical sufficient to make hitting a 6 inch yote chest a game of chance. A deer would have been difficult to make a good shot on at that distance.

    Short range accuracy on both rifles was similar. The major difference was that one rifle exhibited terrible extreme velocity fluctuations which I couldn't correct.

    That's all I have to go by.

    I'm willing to listen and learn though.
     
  11. jwp475

    jwp475 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you Roy, as the ES spread widens so does the vertical dispersion at long range.......
     
  12. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Short range accuracy on both rifles was similar. The major difference was that one rifle exhibited terrible extreme velocity fluctuations which I couldn't correct.

    [/ QUOTE ]A very common problem when firing pin springs get weak and they all do over time. If the spring's over 3 years old, it may need replaced. I'd replace the firing pin spring with a new one and see what happens.

    Many rifle's factory springs aren't strong enough to smack primers hard enough to detonate them uniformly One with at least 10 to 20 percent stronger preload force will usually reduce muzzle velocity spread. For example, Winchester 70 factory springs are rated about 23 pounds when cocked. I use 26 to 28 pound ones and get much better muzzle velocity spreads and accuracy.

    Another cause of large spreads in muzzle velocity is the firing pin doesn't stick far enough out of the bolt face. It should be between .055- and .060-inch for large rifle primers.
     
  13. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    Never an absolute answer when it comes to reloading. Just use the items that shoot best in your rifle...PERIOD.

    I use both primers and will test any rifle with both primers. My 7Mystic only shoots the Fed 210M. Other rifles, the CCI BR2.

    I can say that the CCI is the milder of the two but that is greatly affected by the type of powder, cartridge pressure and barrel.

    You are also likely to find differences in lots of the same component so if you find a combo that works for you, buy a bunch so you don't need to tweak all the time.

    Temp has a pretty profound affect on primers just as it does many powder. Test under the conditions you are going to hunt/compete.

    As to testing over the chrony, sure it is a great aid and can help to narrow down loads or catch when things get too toasty. However, no one scores our chronie, only the holes on paper. So ultimately, that is what matters.

    Always keep in mind that the average chrony has a mechanical error of at least 0.1% to 0.5% (just ask the manf). At 3000fps, the error in the chrony is......3 to 15FPS plus or minus for a total ES of 6 to 30FPS.

    Not so good when the measuring device has a built in error equal or larger then the amounts you are trying to measure. Just give your manf a call and ask for their reading error specs...All optical and timing devices have one.

    I use the chronie alot to catch really gross errors. However, I use the target to fine tune any load/rifle.

    Jerry