Extreme long range training

[rossneder]

I've been communicating with Dean Michaelis about having a training here in Flagstaff in early May. We will be working on 2000+ yd shooting with 1 day classroom and 3 days field shooting.
Dean is considered one of the best trainers in the country, most of you know him here on this site as triggerfifty.

Cost will depend on the number but will be between $700 and $500, limit is 10 participants.

Let me know, there are 6 spots open.

Ross

http://snipersparadise.com/sniperchat/index.php?showtopic=16448

 

[CatShooter]

[ QUOTE ]
Dean is considered one of the best trainers in the country...

[/ QUOTE ]

By who?

No one that I know - Dean was considered a dipstick by his supervisors in the military, and they were glad to get rid of him.

He was an embarrassment in the Chey-Tac thing, and since then he has been promoting himself as a SOF???

He teaches classes and one or two newbees show up - most of the classes are canceled, because of "secret ops demands" on his time ???.

He bragged about constantly shooting 6" groups at 1,000 with a Savage 308, and when challenged on it, he said it was on his computer program???

When called on his shooting ability by a group of long range shooters, he said ANYTIME ANYWHERE, so they agreed to a shoot in his own backyard in Idaho, and he punked out /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Dean is a legend in his own mind.

.

 

[rossneder]

By Who?

By the CheyTac folks (John, Dave) that I personally have spoken to about him, By Barney Lawton who makes many of the 375/408, By the various folks who have evaluated the classes after their personal participation.

Universally agreed that Dave is a bit opinionated, but also universally agreed that he is good at what he teaches, well except you.

Best,
Ross

 

[CatShooter]

This is classic Dean - [ QUOTE ]
"6 July – Overview. The training was attended to 2 shooters. At the last minute, several shooters canceled due to other commitments. The date of this shoot was released late and didn't live much time for shooters to arrange for time off etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

People with "other commitments" don't cancel at the last minute - they don't register for it because they have other commitments - and Dean advertised this course for many months, all over the net, so saying that the attendance was poor because of last minute notice is pure BS - but then, how does Dean explain giving a course that only two people came to???

I had exchanged a number of e-mails with "Dr. John", back when he was with the Chey-Tac group, and his opinion when I spoke to him was that Dean was a "problem" to the group.

Warren Jennsen, who was one of the Chey-Tac group claimed that he was a West Point educated "Ordinance Engineer", and it turned out that he was a fraud - he degree was in "Public Relations"... the bunch were smoke and mirrors.

They dropped Dean like a hot rock, shortly after the Fort
Bragg incident, where he took a .408 to "demonstrate" to the military and shot 6" groups at 100 yds, and couldn't keep his shots on the "target frame" at 1,000, and when called on it, the threatened to take people out and beat them up - a "real grown up" approach to military sales.

Later Dean went to Black Water to be an instructor, and got dumped... he couldn't keep his shots on the movers, and blamed the M-24 rifle, saying that the M-24 was a bad design and couldn't keep shots inside of 2" at 100 yds

(shot with an M-24 at 405 yards):
http://www.snipercountry.com/images/Pablito-M24-0.46-target.jpg

Dean hyped the 408 Chey-Tac for 4 or 5 years as the best thing since smokeless powder... after they dumped him, he trashed Chey-Tac for the past year or two on his website, saying that the .338 Lap and the 50 BMG were by far better cartridges - now his website is down and gone...

Dean has no ethics and would sell swamp land to a church.

And Dean has no real world credentials. He has continually ducked open competitions and all shooting challenges - his "references" come from a small circle of acquaintances.

.

 

[rossneder]

I really don't know what to say. I have no personal experience with him but there is sure a mixed bag of comments. I have only gotten positive feedback about his abilities and lots of "issues" about his people skills.
I appreciate your warning, on the other hand when even the guys he has offended compliment him on his skills, like I said I don't understand.

Anybody have first hand experience with what he teaches?
Ross

 

[rossneder]

It's a little surprising that this training is regarded negatively here on LRH, and yet there are now 3 pages of positive remarks from people who have attended his training on
http://www.snipershide.net/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=142540&page=1#Post142540

Check it out for yourself.

Ross

 

[Dave King]

Ross

I just read the thread you linked here, I see 23 posts, 5 of which are yours, 2 folks say they've attended and were pleased the remaining folks are pretty much just chatting and wishing.

I don't see that thread as overwhelming support or approval.

I don't personally know Dean but have seen and read many of his posts around the web, he does have a way of drawing some controversy. I will also say that I have not seen any hard evidence that would positively convinced me that he can do what he claims.

I've dealt with Lost River Ballistics and tested some of their bullets in a direct test with Warren Jensen. Warren was very decent about the test and generous with his support, the test we conducted were more educational the practical use, a test of polygonal rifling and monolithic bullets.

Extreme long range shooting is a little different especially if we're talking about first round hits. If you have the basics of long range shooting mastered you can progress to extreme long range without being completely frustrated. It is a stepwise increase in difficulty with a considerable increase in the significance of environmental and other factors (ambient temp, pressure, departure angle, cant, etc).

Although I personally don't have any desire to attend long range shooting classes for rifles I have shot to distance just a few yards short of a mile, I would consider this extreme long range. What I view as the draw for a class such as offered is the opportunity to spend some quality time on a rifle with the possibility of a person of equal or superior knowledge present to provide a little guidance. I believe a person could possibly gain as much useful information and experience just spending a few days shooting varmints with a seasoned long range shooter. I guess what I'm headed toward is that a fella needs to get out and shoot, practice (quality practice) with someone a little better and more experienced... doing so with Dean may be an option, I'd personally pick someone else.

 

[CatShooter]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a little surprising that this training is regarded negatively here on LRH, and yet there are now 3 pages of positive remarks from people who have attended his training on
<>
Check it out for yourself.

Ross

[/ QUOTE ]

Ross...

I started this note by asking "My question is why you are continually promoting Dean - you sound more like a salesman than a "potential student"."

Then I went over and read the thread on "The 'hide", and low and behold, you are promoting the classes cuz you are one of the promoters. You started the thread with:

"I've been communicating with Dean Michaelis - bla bla bla bla... but will be between $700 and $500, limit is 10 participants.
Let me know, there are 6 spots open.
Ross"

In fact it's the very same post you started this thread with - you are a talking billboard.

Makes sense - you are in it for the money. A typical dean "Standard operations".

It would be nice if you were out front with that little bit of info, and said "Dean and I are going to run some classes...".

Dean was considered the worst "instructor" in the program, when he was in the service. When he got out, the first website he went to was "SniperCountry, a website that Dave King was a regular on, until he started this up.

Dean tried to convince the SC group that he was the best shooter in the world, maybe the whole friggin' universe.

Trouble was... several of his "military buddies" were on that site, including his former supervisor, Rick Boucher, head of sniper training. Dean was run off the site - and if you knew what a rowdy, trashy bunch of bums hang out there, you would know that it is HARD to get kicked off of SniperCountry, unless you are a real idiot, or are full of BS. Dean qualified on both counts.

When Dean got hired by Chey-Tac, he was like a kid with his first paper route... he new NOTHING about shooting at what we here call "long range". He and I had many (many - MANY) e-mails about how he should go about his new job - I hand fed him the information - how to test and evaluate bullet BC and drop past 1,000 yds, out to 2,000 yds and further... he had never done it. And this was not too long ago - around 2001~ish.

After a little while, he got full of himself, and started promoting himself, and the 408 over on Biggerhammer, and told that bunch that he was the best shooter around - he got the attention of a lot of beginning wannabees, who said "Ooooh" and "Aaaah", when Dean told them about the 20" groups he regularly shot at 3,200 yds...

... but the seasoned 50BMG shooters just laughed at the "new loudmouf'".

Dean regularly came up with his "own" theories about how guns and bullets worked... only problem was Dean has a really limited education, and so just as regularly, dean made a flaming *** out of himself in front of the whole bunch.

Dean is a fairly good shot, but there are a LOT of fairly good shots. Go to any Camp Perry match and you'll get buried in them.

Dean can impress the little kids, but in the world of serious "longrange" and "Extreme longrange" FIELD shooters, Dean is nowhere to be found.

Take dean to a part of the country that he hasn't been to, and hasn't previously marked the range distances on... and have him walk in with his kit... against other longrange shooters, and Dean will get creamed. Has has NEVER accepted a shooting challenge against skilled shooters.

Kids and newbees are real easy to impress.

Dean's courses consist of a few days about how great Dean is.

.

 

[britz]

Thanks catshooter and David King (as well as Ross for trying) for the information. Even though I have no desire to spend money on getting "trianing" on long range shooting, it is good of you to warn people of possible fraud. I get my information from trial and error based on reading and advice from some local experts. There is quite a bit of illregard for Trigger fifty on several of the forums I visit--seems pretty clear that the guy isn't all he's cracked up to be.

 

[rossneder]

Well, OK then. If Dean is so bad at this - who do you know that will put on a training. I have a long distance range, classroom and a few willing students.

Yes, of course I "billboarded" the call for students, who wouldn't?

No, there is no Dean and I, I just want some good training.

No, I'm "not in it for the money" that's a little weird to throw accusations like that. Oh, wait, if more people sign up it cost less, so maybe I'm in it for the money, again who wouldn't do that?

I'd like some good solid training and am scouring the Internet for that. That is all that is happening here, nothing subversive, immoral or illegal.

So, who do you know that will do a good A to Z long range training?

 

[srhaggerty]

Shawn Carlock would get my vote for that. He is the only one I know though. Great guy to boot.

 

[jwp475]

[ QUOTE ]
Shawn Carlock would get my vote for that. He is the only one I know though. Great guy to boot.

[/ QUOTE ]

+1

 

[Supermag]

If you can't get Shawn to do it, try to get Goodgrouper to spread some of his knowledge. He seems to be one of the best long range hunters/shooters on this board.

 

[1doug]

GG was going to start doing a class like this. email him and see. I would go with Shawn myself. He has the credentials to back up the knowledge.

d-a