Exploding Prairie Dogs.....

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Farsighted, Aug 4, 2005.

  1. Farsighted

    Farsighted New Member

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  2. sbuckelew3662

    sbuckelew3662 New Member

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    that was pretty good... ever seen the ones on seekers of the redmist? not bad. has anyone here seen the video of the guy kicking the javalina under the deer feeder... had it, can't find it.
     

  3. sniper2

    sniper2 Well-Known Member

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    Proof that speed kills!!!
     
  4. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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  5. sewwhat89

    sewwhat89 Well-Known Member

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    WHAT KIND OF ROUNDS DO THAT?

    That is crazy! Now I got the bug to go snipe some of them, but there are only cat and fox squirrels in East TX. I think it unwise to shoot them out of trees with .22-250 or .25-06. ;o)
     
  6. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    I can't wait until I get to go pdogin next year. Now I really got the bug. Wildcat.
     
  7. ricka0

    ricka0 Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    <font color="purple"> WHAT KIND OF ROUNDS DO THAT? </font>

    [/ QUOTE ]
    It's called <font color="brown"> MISSING </font>. I've been doing that for 30 years in Montana. I've posted the same numerous times when people talk about missing and you don't kill the vermin (BS). Shoot low and they fly straight up and the <font color="red"> SOFT Underbelly </font> explodes.

    My question, which I have posted 4 times and got one outraged tree hugger response and silence the other times: Does it count getting into the 1000 etc club when I use my 50 BMG and 750 gr A-MAX? I don't have to get very close.

    Not to hijack this thread, but now that were on ethics - I'm 1/16 American Indian. I may qualify to shoot whales (they use 50 BMG). If I shoot out of a chopper, 3,000 yards directly above the whale - does that get me into the 3K club? After all killing whales is part of our tradition. The way it used to happen: <ul type="square"> [*]Spend 3,000 man/squaw hours burning out/chipping out a canoe [*]Go after Whales with spears [*]Just before the whale dies, jump into the water and sew up his lips so he doesn't sink (so you can tow him back) [*]Try not to get eaten while sewing up his lips. Remember, seals are Orcas favorite meals [/list]
    How it's done now (very similar) <ul type="square"> [*]Hi tech graphite canoes, life vests, etc [*]Power boats to *Heard the whales* [*]Spotter planes to find the Whales [*]GPS, radios to communicate positions, etc [*]50 BMG to Kill the Whale [*]Tow boat to two the trophy back in [*]Hi tech optics [/list] As you can see this vital tradition has hardly changed in the last several hundred years.
     
  8. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    What you are describing is why the open ocean fisheries have been depleted by the commercial fishing operations. The high tech approach is simply devastating the fish populations in every ocean in the world.

    Anyway back to pdogs. Somewhere in my computer I made some conservation of momentum calculations. Momentum is just the mass of the object multiplied times the veleocity of the object. A varmint bullet at high speed has a momentum of about 1.0 - 1.5. A prairie dog weighs about one pound so if you disintergrate you varmint bullet on him /or her the momentum is transferred to the pdog which then moves with a velocity of 1.0 to 1.5 feet per second. If you shoot low and hit it low then the moementum is applied a distance of about six inches (assuming the dog is 12 inches high) from the center of mass. This gives you a torque arm of six inches. Torque is angular momentum., This causes the pdog to fly and rotate.

    Now then if you shoot a hundred pound deer with the same bullet you give the deer the same momentum of 1.0 so to get the speed at which the deer is slammed to the ground you must divide 1.0 by 100 pounds and you get a velocity of the deer of 0.01 fps - it moves one foot every one hundred seconds. For a 1000 pound moose of bufffalo you would impart a speed of 0.001 fps (i.e. he would not even twitch).

    In all of this nonsense is the simple fact that a 55 grain varmint bullet will move a pdog wieghing one pound but if you want to move a deer weighing 100 pounds you would need to shoot a bullet weighing 100 times more - 5,500 gr bullet traveling at a speed of about 3500 fps. This would flip a deer over like a pdog. I believe this is about a 105 howitzer.

    I suspect you already know most of this but maybe some of the kids can learn something about the difference between bullet energy and bullet momentum.
     
  9. sewwhat89

    sewwhat89 Well-Known Member

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    Actually a .45-70 shooting 300 gr HP at 2450 fps will flip a deer and cause a massive explosion of flesh similar to those seen in the videos. I shot a doe two seasons ago at about 75 yds. Three vertebrae and the upper lobes of the lungs were scattered up to 12 feet in a persimmon tree, and she was lifted and thrown over a water-bar and back about six or seven feet. Imagine 1/2 to 2/3 of a regulation-sized basketball size piece of flesh being removed from a 100 lb whitetail doe to the spinal cord and that is what was missing. In all the carnage, her spinal cord was not severed, and I had to finish her off with 155 gr 40 S&amp;W to the brain region.
     
  10. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    With the 45-70 at 70 yards you had an momentum of about 3.0 pounds-sec.
     
  11. ricka0

    ricka0 Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    <font color="purple">torque arm of six inches. Torque is angular momentum.,</font>

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You can only have a torque arm if you can sustain a shear, which the dirt obviously cannot. The conservation of momentum is essentially correct except you are dissipating a lot of energy in the dirt. By hitting the dirt you transfer more mass at lower velocity to the animals underbelly. A direct hit doesn't move the animal as far.
    I used 165gr BT-HP out of my '06

    Torque is R X F
    Angular momentum deals with momentum around an axis (at least topologically speaking, depending on the number of dimensions).
     
  12. ricka0

    ricka0 Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    <font color="purple"> if you want to move a deer weighing 100 pounds you would need to shoot a bullet weighing 100 times more - 5,500 gr bullet traveling at a speed of about 3500 fps. </font>

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Shooting a deer with a 5.5 Kgr bullet at 3.5K FPS wouldn't move the deer much, it would punch a hole through him. Remember, when you shoot a gun, you get more momentum applied to your shoulder than the target gets. If the deer had armour plating, then yes it would go rolling.

    Hold a box up and drop a brick into it and you will feel the momentum. Now shoot that box with a .22 rim-fire and the same box won't move.
     
  13. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    Torque is R X F
    Angular momentum deals with momentum around an axis (at least topologically speaking, depending on the number of dimensions).

    At some point I need to figure out how to do the little quote box /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


    Yes and no. You are specifically correct but where you say "axis" I say "center of mass" My inertial frame refernce point is different from yours. And no I am not a total idiot - Just a partial idiot /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif "shear" is "force" and force is "mass" times "acceleration".
    "Acceleration" divided by "time" is "velocity". The simplication I made from "F =force" ( impulse) to momentum is acceptable if we are doing a COMPARISON and assume the time function of transfer (acceleration) is equivalent between a deer and a prairie dog we can divide time out of the function and be left with velocity time mass and are back to momentum-( we both know that a deer is about 10 times thicker than a prairie dog and the time of transfer of momentum will create a different "force" equation but my belief is that this is trvial in the scheme of the calculation).

    You have indirectly answered a question that had bounced around in my head. If your bullet has a downward trajectory when it strikes the dog then how do you get a dog to have upward motion(fly through the air)- answer - by hittng the dirt in front of the dog and causeing dirt/ bullet to fly upward and "lift" the dog. So I guess if you want some dramatic videos of dogs flying through the air then you would want to riccochet the bullets into them.


    If you want to have some fun with math with your new rifle, and beleive any of the stuff I have said then I have some really interesting stuff in my computer on conservation of momentum and shooting elk. This is left over from my very polite and courteous disagreement with John M. Too bad the man could not stick to science and had to get to name calling.

    Any way I think the bottom line is that we agree a person will need a really thin jacket and big hollow point on the 105 howitzer bullet to move a deer.
     
  14. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

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    I had the opportunity to eat lunch with a few folks some years ago that know more about bullets than i ever will. Lones Wigger, and T.D. Smith among them. The topic was raised concerning how a bullet (the vmax in particular) can cause the devistation they do on small critters. What followed was a complicated discusion that i left from understanding that one of the major factors in these types of things is the rotational forces the bullet experences once it begins to expand, and is no longer (relatively ) concentric. Just some food for thought.
    a bullet fired at 4000FPS, from a 1:10 twist barrel is turing 288,000RPM at the muzzle. Im not sure how much force that generates when you have a small section of jacket and core pushed... say... .01" off center, but i know its enough to turn a pretty solid piece of metal into tiny flakes, and dust.