Elk rifle

Through reading these post's, I am really starting to believe that the "energy" that most talk about is meaningless. I think that it is just a number and has no real effect. Small caliber vs. large caliber=same energy levels=larger caliber wins every time. I just would like to hear your thoughts on "energy" because I find myself looking at energy numbers less and less and find it doesn't make much difference at all. The right bullet hitting the intended target within the right velocity window is the ticket, assuming proper placement too. Just my thoughts, want to know if others would agree or to set me on the right path.


It's not that "energy" is irrelevant. It is relevant, it's just not everything that matters. You need a minimum amount of energy when your bullet hits the targeted game for the bullet to do the damage you intended. You also need enough mass in the projectile to penetrate, and you need a projectile that will either penetrate or break up as required by the game you are shooting.

When shooting an elk that may weigh half a ton & have 5-6" of muscle on the shoulder before the bullet gets to a sizable bone, penetration is critical. A massive amount of energy released at the surface may eventually kill the elk, but that may be days later. Heavier bullets penetrate better, and larger calibers generally shoot those heavier projectiles better than smaller calibers. That's why the .338 Win Mag is a much better elk rifle than the .264 Win Mag that uses the same shell casing (as does the 7 mm Rem mag).
 
People over think this one. Launch a 140 - 180 gr tsx, partition or bonded bullet at least 2900 - 3000 fps+ in the 6.5/270/7mm/30 cal. rifle of your choice and you're good to go. They're all flat enough to hold on out to 300 and have a foot or less of drop out to 400 yds and that's getting out there.

If you want to take shots at 500 yds or longer then case capacity and bullet size matter more, but very few people should take those really long shots. The writers selling magazines and internet hunters talk about that big bull 500 yds across the canyon running up the hill and it dropped it in its tracks with that 250 gr. ultramag. Forget that if you're just starting to hunt elk. If somebody likes a big bullet in a big capacity cartridge then by all means go for it. Just saying you don't need it to hunt elk. I've killed 3 elk in 5 years, two with a 308, one with a 270. All of them drt. Elk are magical creatures in some ways, but they're only flesh and bone.

You didn't mention a scope but I think that there's a tendency to buy too much magnification too. A high quality 3x9 or 2.5x10 is all you need.

Here's a few ideas - a 280 AI, the good ol' 06, or the 338-06 if you like the idea of a bigger bullet. Hard to beat any of those for an elk rifle with moderate recoil. If the tsx's shoot well in your rifle that would be a good pick for a bullet, as good as you can get for penetration and weight retention.

Let us know what you decide and good luck!
 
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I will add another comment, the bullet has to due it's job! Years ago I almost lost one of my best Wyoming mule deer that was hit perfect with a 338wm. A 550 yard shot that went through both lungs and a deer that went a long ways. Was it the mighty 338's fault? No, it was the 225 gr barnes X that didn't expand at all. The bullet penciled through both lungs with no expansion and very little delivered energy. I didn't find the deer until the next day and was amazed at what I found. This has led to my search for the perfect bullet and I am not sure I have found it yet. The tipped tripple shock shows promise and I loaded some up this year in 225 gr and they shot well. Then I was informed of a griz shot in alaska this year with the same bullet that failed! The bear was shot through the shoulder with a 338wm and the bear went into the alders. The hunter knew something wasn't right and climbed a tree and spotted the bear crouched down waiting for an ambush. The hunter pulled his rifle up the tree and finished the job. Upon examination, all of the pedals of the tipped tripple shock peeled off going through the shoulder bone. This is what I consider to be bullet failure. I have had the same thing happen with Nosler Partitions including a nice 6 point bull that I shot a couple of years ago at 542 yards with my 338 rum. The difference being that the shoulder took a lot of energy from the hit, but when quartering the elk, only a small hole was found going into the chest cavity, the partition had lost all of the frontal area before the partition. The elk only went several yards and piled up, but the bullet didn't perform to my standards. I am now shooting Nosler Accubonds and so far I have had excellent performance with the 225's in my 338 rum. I even managed to recover one this year from a quartering shot on a nice muley in the high country. The bullet looked perfect, unfortunately I didn't get to measure it since my wife didn't appreciate it sitting on the island in the kitchen and it mysteriously disappeared. As far as the Accubond goes, it has worked well in my 338, but been a little marginal in my 300 rum as I have seen it blow up on impact on several antelope causing drt, but ruining the cape in the process.

So, what is the perfect bullet? I want swift to make me a 225gr 338 A frame with a polmer tip and a bc of 550 or more and then I will have the perfect bullet. The A frame is a proven performer that has the integrity to crush bone, mushroom well and retain almost all of it's weight.
 
Lucky Guy, Now don't get me started on scopes and bullets. I agree with you on scopes and bullets. I shoot lower power scopes with high FOV for easy and quick target aquisition at close range in timber when needed. With ten power I can easily take out an animal at 1000 yards because I have done it for years and know how.

For bullets the tsx and ttsx are the premier elk bullet because you can drive them through any portion of the elk at any angle presented and kill the elk. But don't get me started on these two topics because I got enough guys mad at me already for the caliber deal.

D.camilleri, The barnes x had a bad habit of pencil holes. They changed up the tsx and ttsx and I have way better succes with those. I quit the nosler partition back in the 70's for the same reason you mentioned. Last year I saw four complete bullet failures with the 225 AB. Complete jacket core seperation and nothing left but shrapnel through the elk. This was my primary bullet at the time and it shocked me. I agree the swift would be the answer. I have great success with the swift scirroco as the best performing lead core bullet on the market. Your experience seems to be about the same overall as what I have seen with most stuff.

I used the 185 ttsx in 338 winchester on my grizz this year. It performed perfectly.
 
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LTLR,

It was based on your reports of Accubond failures last year that I worked up loads with the tipped tripple shock. They shoot well, although I didn't get a chance to draw blood this year with them. There should have been a dead cow elk a couple of weeks ago, but I made the mistake of ranging without using the leica and I estimated short enough to miss. Chit happens. I was happy to finally recover a 225 accubond that did exactly what it should do. Still doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies that the next box I open won't be like the ones you had fail.
 
In 2009 I shot a bull at over 500yds with my 300 Win mag. 168g TSX @ 3300 fps. Complete pass through both shoulders. What else do you need?
 
I want to put up a post made by Kirby Allen about 7mm: nuff said

Fiftydriver
SPONSOR Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 5,457

Re: best long range 7mm for 1200 yrds+?

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I am a huge fan of the big 7mms, hell my 7mm Allen Magnum is about as high on the performance ladder as you can get, in fact its performance out strides many of the best bullets we have on the market as far as the bullets velocity limits.

That said, a 7mm for hunting past 1000 yards, in my opinion is questionable. Not for ballistic reasons but more for terminal reasons. Hell ballistically, they are very hard to beat. For example my 7mm AM with a 175 gr SMK loaded to 3550 fps has nearly 2100 fps of retained velocity at 1200 yards and just shy of 1700 ft/lbs of energy. These numbers may seem high to some but I had to use a BC of .680 to get my drops to match up with actual bullet flight so the 0.608 BC that Sierra lists seems to be quite low with this bullet. That said, I have used this bullet on big game(mule deer and whitetail) out to 900 yards and I can tell you that even with ideal shot placement, terminal performance is not all that great.

I have also tested the 169 and 180 gr Bergers loaded both right to around 3300 fps which I have found is their velocity ceiling in most cases. Because of the velocity limits, the SMK actually outperforms these bullets by a noticable amount out to 1500 yards. The Berger bullet is a softer bullet for sure, expands a bit more easily but at ranges past 1000 yards they also have limits on terminal performance.

In my opinion, Without the 200 gr Wildcat Bullets which are supposed to be shipping again, the 7mm family is best left to 1000 yards and less. Even with the 200 gr ULD RBBT, shot placement at ranges past 1000 yards is CRITICAL. Yes it is with any bullet or chambering used but the smaller the bullet, the lighter the bullet, the MORE CRITICAL it is.

I am not saying a poor shot with a larger caliber will result in a quick kill, certainly not. What I am saying is that a shot on the fringes with a larger caliber, heavier bullet will ALWAYS result in BETTER results then with a smaller caliber, no matter what 7mm your shooting.

It also depends on what game your hunting. Deer under 200 lbs are a much different story then northern deer which can routinely hit +300 lbs and at times push 400 lbs. The very best long range bullets are not overly impressive as far as terminal performance which is to bad. If we could get the terminal performance of the 160 gr Accubond in a bullet with a .650 to .700 BC, we would really be onto something.

The big 7mms will do amazing work on deer size game at some totally extreme ranges but shot placement is critical meaning you better put a hole through both lungs for best results. Only pop one lung and you will likely never see your target on the ground unless your lucky.

In my opinion, the 7mm family NEEDS good bullet expansion to perform properly, in my opinion again, this occurs at ranges under 1000 yards on game 400 lbs and lighter.

For elk size game at 1000 yards and beyond, I DO NOT recommend a 7mm as a primary weapon for this purpuse. It can be made to work but there are vastly superior choices to be had.

On the topic of barrel life, I tend to get a chuckle out of this topic. Most SERIOUS shooters will not put 300 rounds of ammo through their rifles in a year. The vast majority of shooters will not put 100 rounds down the barrel in a year. And, even with less then 100 rounds down a barrel you can easily maintain proficency with a long range rifle. For example, When I go out to field practice with one of my rifles, this being after load development, ballistic confirmation and rifle zeroing has been done. I will generally shoot 10 to 20 rounds per session at most. This is by finding a target of opportunity, say a rock which I like to shoot at sub 1/2 moa sized rocks for field practice. I will set up the rifle, range the target, figure the ballistic hold and fire a shot. Take notes of there was a miss and at times take a followup shot but most of the time I will take a single shot.

You can spend 1/2 a day doing this and only put 10-20 rounds down a barrel, if your shooting more then one rifle, its often less then this.

So lets take an average, say 15 shots per field practice session. IF I did that twice a month during the entire off season I would only have 300 rounds down the barrel each year except for hunting season which generally amounts to 3-5 shots all hunting season.

In reality, where I live here in Montana, seldom do we go out and shoot in the months of Dec, Jan, Feb simply because the weather seldom allows us to do this comfortably. So figuring that we have from March until Mid October to shoot our rifles in field practice sessions, again, That is roughly 7 months, Thats 210 shots a year.....

Again, in reality, most of us will not get a serious long range shooting session twice a month. Some do, do not get me wrong, but most of us, even those of us that shoot 3-4 times a week like I do seldom shoot with our personal hunting rifles. more then once a month. That brings us down to around 100 rounds a year, again, plenty to stay proficent if done correctly.

Point being, you will likely see 800-900 rounds of barrel life out of a 7mm Allen Magnum on average. Some last more then this but this is on average if the barrel is not overheated and cared for properly. Figure you will have 100 rounds in barrel break in, load development and ballistic drop chart validation on average. I generally do this in less then 40 rounds but thats a different story, we will use 100 rounds.

That leaves us 700-800 rounds of barrel life once the rifle is ready to hunt with. Or in other words, 7-8 years of barrel life IF you put 100 rounds down the barrel a year and most will never get close to this level of shooting. In reality, I would say you would get 12-15 years of useful barrel life in a 7mm AM class rifle if cared for properly.

And at that, once you burn a barrel out, for another $700-$800 you can have a completely fresh barrel fitted, threaded, installed, finished and muzzle machined for muzzle brake and your back to a brand new rifle. Thats less them most quality factory rifles and 1/3 to 1/4 the price of a complete rifle.

So, my opinion, no 7mm is fully adequate for +1000 yard big game hunting. In my business, you have to be conservative because if your not, some customer will call you up and chew your rear because he hit a buck of a lifetime on the diaphram at 1200 yards and lost the animal and that would be my fault because the relatively small diameter 7mm bullet did not do enough damage to the rear of the lungs and liver to drop the animal soon enough to be recovered whereas a larger caliber likely would have done much better simply because of the amount of tissue displacement compared to the smaller caliber bullet.

It is also my opinion that barrel life is about 10% of the issue that most would make it out to be. ITs more a wives tale made up but those that do not favor extreme chamberings. Certainly these chamberings eat a throat faster then smaller chamberings but many things go into burning a throat in a rifle, very few have to do with the actual chambering the barrel is cut to!!! Add to that that most will never shoot enough to burn out a barrel and its really somewhat of a moot point.

To that end, I have had over a dozen shot out barrels come into my shop ranging from a 25-06 up to my 7mm Allen Magnum and 338 Allen Magnum and after several days of cleaning to get several pennies worth of copper out of the barrels, they shot like new again!!!

Do not overheat your barrel, break it in properly, do not let carbon fouling build up, do not let copper fouling build up and it will amaze you how long it will last you no matter the chambering.

heat a barrel up and keep shooting, let it get dirty and keep it that way and you will take 50 to 75% of the barrel life away from your rifle........

Sorry for the long winded post.
__________________
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.
 
Not too long. Great post and great read. I found it very helpfull. I was curious tho, do you have a favorite cleaning solvent for the carbon and copper build-up? Do you know how many cleaning patches you would normally run through when you know your barrel is actually clean? I usually end up with like 20-30 when I'm done.
 
meatyrem, I know I'm off subject a little, but it's a common complaint. I've got Lilja barrels and one Lawton that will clean up after 5 shots with 3-5 patches (after I did a good slow (cool) barrel break-in). On some barrels, particularly factory barrels, I just finally give up on getting a white patch. I worry about over cleaning...too much solvent and too many strokes can remove the "seasoning" in a bore and you end up having what amounts to an unbroken-in bore. Sounds crazy, but I believe it.

I've settled on Butch's Bore Shine, but you have to run something behind it. I use some stuff called RustePrufe. It is a mild nitro solvent and a good preservative. It can be left in the bore and chamber, and cleans bolt faces, etc. Good stuff. I used Hoppe's # 9 for years, but several years ago I finally read the instructions. They say NOT to leave # 9 in the bore. Speaking of leaving stuff in the bore, I still dry patch the bore and chamber before firing.

I know that bore cleaning has been covered over and over, but I still read everything I see on the subject. I'll bet 50 Driver has covered it also, but I'm watching to see if he replies too.

Tom
 
I use either a 270wsm or 300wsm on elk mostly. Shot a cow a couple years ago with the 270 wsm and rolled her at a little over 500yards(482 to the bush she was above and behind). For long range a bigger caliber is nice if you use the right bullet. I also have a 45/70 that I use when going in the dark timber. The bigger the bullet is going in the better. At longer ranges shot placement is key so trajectory and wind drift alter the caliber choice towards fast high bc bullets.

I fix cars for a living and have developed a little different way of cleaning rifles because it seemed to me that the traditional way was pushing a lot of the same dirt around.

First I will take the rifle and spray out the barrel with brake cleaner.

I either blow dry it or let it drip a few seconds and then generally I put in a bore guide and fill the bore with wipeout. After 5-10 minutes I will run patches through to push out the wipeout. Alternatively I will use powder solvent and run some wet patches in and let them sit for a bit before pushing it out.

After that I may of may not run some copper cleaner in. I generally use sweets and wet a patch and push it through wait a few minutes and push through another until it lightens up quite a bit.

After this I will spray out the barrel with brake cleaner again and dry it. The bore guide gets cleaned also.

At this point I send some patches with Kroil down the tube and see what they look like. If I see some black crud I will use some bore paste on a patch and run a couple through to remove any stuck crud. Then It gets the brake cleaner again and a wet patch with Kroil and the chamber swabbed out.

This results in about 10 patches used and a lot less pushing out crud that can be removed with brake cleaner.
 
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Thanks Specweldtom

The Hoppes #9 benchrest copper solvent is what I use. I have been leaning towards butch's bore shine to turn to next because I hear others are happy with it. I usually saturate a patch, run it back and forth a couple times and let it set for 5 or10 minutes then again with a other saturated patch. Then dry patches for five or six pushi g all out the bore. If still not clean then I'll repeat at least two more cycles, maybe a third. Then after I get the bore dry then I'll run a saturated patch with Rem Oil back and forth a couple times then dry the bore with a few dry patches then lightly spray a patch with Rem Oil and then down the bore and out. I don't like metal rod for cleaning either. Me and a friend bought metal rods with a protective coating and after a while the coating was almost scraped off his cleaning rod. Mine was barely marked at all cuz I'm a little more particular than that. But I decided to go with the fiberglass rod instead and am happier.

There are times that I will use the foaming bore cleaner too and I have good results with that also.
 
Sorry fellas, I guess I got a little off topic. I thought I heard of someone else using brake cleaner. Does it have the same properties (chemical) as regular copper bore solvent?
 
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