I think y'all have finally broken me and I'm buying a 338. I'll learn to deal with the brake, I always use ear plugs anyway. I'm pretty excited about having a big boy in the safe. I know the 7 would probably do it but if I left a wounded elk out there my first hunt and knew I could have used some more firepower I would be pretty upset!
Elk rifle
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Arthur,
Wise Choice, and thanks for starting a great thread.
Shot a LARGE elk last year at 27'. (Yes, miracles happen.) I put a 7MM Rem mag bullet 4" behind the shoulder muscle & blew out his lungs. Guide said to shoot him again to put him on the ground so I put one in his shoulder. Using premium bullets, the second shot didn't make it to his chest cavity. Likely due to the velocity at that range, even the 160 grain premium bullet failed. If that shoulder shot had been my only shot, that elk would have died days later.
I'll never cary a 7 MM Rem Mag for elk again. If I don't have a .340 Weatherby available before my next elk hunt I'll cary my Sako 75 in .375 H&H. The .375 isn't the flattest shooting round, but it's very accurate & it penetrates.
Wise Choice, and thanks for starting a great thread.
Shot a LARGE elk last year at 27'. (Yes, miracles happen.) I put a 7MM Rem mag bullet 4" behind the shoulder muscle & blew out his lungs. Guide said to shoot him again to put him on the ground so I put one in his shoulder. Using premium bullets, the second shot didn't make it to his chest cavity. Likely due to the velocity at that range, even the 160 grain premium bullet failed. If that shoulder shot had been my only shot, that elk would have died days later.
I'll never cary a 7 MM Rem Mag for elk again. If I don't have a .340 Weatherby available before my next elk hunt I'll cary my Sako 75 in .375 H&H. The .375 isn't the flattest shooting round, but it's very accurate & it penetrates.
specweldtom
Well-Known Member
Elk are big and tough. I use a 338 Lapua . A few months ago the shot was good and the elk still ran 20 yards. I've learned with elk, bigger is better.
At 500 yards the 7mm delivers about 1250 ft/lbs of energy. In my opinion you need at least 1900 for elk which puts the effective range of a 7mm mag at about 200 yards.
This is just an opinon. I've seen and heard of too many elk running off after being shot and a whole day is spent tracking a suffering animal.
Jason
At 500 yards the 7mm delivers about 1250 ft/lbs of energy. In my opinion you need at least 1900 for elk which puts the effective range of a 7mm mag at about 200 yards.
This is just an opinon. I've seen and heard of too many elk running off after being shot and a whole day is spent tracking a suffering animal.
Jason
7mm Eclipse
Well-Known Member
Arthurj,
Excellent read!!
Thanks for asking an excellent question and getting the feedback from the highly experience Elk Hunters.
I am also in the process of setting up my first Elk Hunt this year out west.
Good Luck with your new rifle and your hunt.
Excellent read!!
Thanks for asking an excellent question and getting the feedback from the highly experience Elk Hunters.
I am also in the process of setting up my first Elk Hunt this year out west.
Good Luck with your new rifle and your hunt.
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
Buano,
What premium bullet are you using? I think you need to re-think your bullet choice more than the rifle you are carrying.
I said it earlier in this post, and I'll say it again. Bullet choice is paramount in big game hunting. More important than caliber choice. Use the correct bullet for the project. Use it inside the parameters that it is designed to function correctly. Correct function is complete penetration with a large permanent wound channel. Energy is an abstract figure that is for the most part meaningless. I can hit someone with a brick that is carrying much more energy than a bullet and they would probably walk away. Chances are they would not walk away from the bullet that carries much less energy.
Bigger caliber rifles usually cause more damage than smaller caliber rifles using the same bullet. But the key is choosing the right bullet.
This is a long range site, and the cartridge selection does become more import the farther out you go. But it is still a function of the bullet and should not be over looked.
A 20mm is going to drop an elk better than everything else, so why would anyone consider using anything less?
I hope you all see where I am coming from here. I am not trying to **** in anybodies Cheerios, just trying not to loose sight of (IMHO) the most important part of the equation. The bullet.
Steve
rooster740
Well-Known Member
I feel like everyone else here, my caliber choice is the best! As stated already this is a discussion of long range shooting. So that in mind, no situation is going to be ideal. There will be days when a 200 yard shot at a bull elk is almost impossible, and with the same rifle, days later, a 500 yard shot at a coyote is an easy "bang flop". I will say that many times I have witnessed people who simply can not accurately dispatch animals of any size, at any range, with their rifle of choice, and 90% of the time it has something to do with recoil.
All of this has been previously stated, but here is my 2 cents. Bullet selection is the key word here, an ideal bullet at 800 yards will very often act like a varmit bullet at 27 feet. From my experience, solid copper bullets are not always the best bullet choice at true long range. I will say in a situation I have found myself in this season, my preferred rifle, a 308 win,which usually shoots 1/2 moa 168 barnes groups, looked more like a 1 1/2 inch shot gun pattern. This my friends is bad timing for barrel work. This is my choice I typically use with amazing results on elk out to 500 yards. I use 200AB in my 300RUM with devastating results, for that 500-800 range.
The 165 Accubond at 2900fps shoot sub moa out of my 308Win, but my finding this year were at 100 yards, a head shot obviously was deadly, but the closer then usual range chest shot, the Accubond was less then stellar. The first shot had the animal bleeding from its nose(dead on its feet) The wind was blowing snow so hard, that after the first shot, a severe series of gusts, put me in a situation where I did not see the animal for about 1 minute, which seemed like forever. I hate to let animals stand there and die so I took another high shoulder. The first bullet would have effectively killed the elk, but did not make it through the other side of the chest which is what collapses lungs effectively.
For kicks I will say that a friend of mine chose to use her 375H&H on elk this year, a rifle bought for an up coming Alaska and Africa trip, and worthy experiment . It worked great on her cow at 100 yards. Hunting a few weeks later, was very discouraging when she could not hit a bull at 455 yards and her boyfriend wacked it instead. The next day she smartened up, and used the boyfriend's 300 weatherby to kill a 350 bull, and now owns this rifle also.
As we all know long range for one person, is not long range for another. Either way, hit or miss, you have to travel to the target's location. So if you choose a lighter side weapon that suits you, then you get closer while the animal is still alive. If you choose the "man Cannon", or your "lady Long Ranger" then you close the distance in celebration.
A wise man (we all have one) once told me to burn up lots of powder, they make it new every day. That is how you figure out which rifle is the best.
All of this has been previously stated, but here is my 2 cents. Bullet selection is the key word here, an ideal bullet at 800 yards will very often act like a varmit bullet at 27 feet. From my experience, solid copper bullets are not always the best bullet choice at true long range. I will say in a situation I have found myself in this season, my preferred rifle, a 308 win,which usually shoots 1/2 moa 168 barnes groups, looked more like a 1 1/2 inch shot gun pattern. This my friends is bad timing for barrel work. This is my choice I typically use with amazing results on elk out to 500 yards. I use 200AB in my 300RUM with devastating results, for that 500-800 range.
The 165 Accubond at 2900fps shoot sub moa out of my 308Win, but my finding this year were at 100 yards, a head shot obviously was deadly, but the closer then usual range chest shot, the Accubond was less then stellar. The first shot had the animal bleeding from its nose(dead on its feet) The wind was blowing snow so hard, that after the first shot, a severe series of gusts, put me in a situation where I did not see the animal for about 1 minute, which seemed like forever. I hate to let animals stand there and die so I took another high shoulder. The first bullet would have effectively killed the elk, but did not make it through the other side of the chest which is what collapses lungs effectively.
For kicks I will say that a friend of mine chose to use her 375H&H on elk this year, a rifle bought for an up coming Alaska and Africa trip, and worthy experiment . It worked great on her cow at 100 yards. Hunting a few weeks later, was very discouraging when she could not hit a bull at 455 yards and her boyfriend wacked it instead. The next day she smartened up, and used the boyfriend's 300 weatherby to kill a 350 bull, and now owns this rifle also.
As we all know long range for one person, is not long range for another. Either way, hit or miss, you have to travel to the target's location. So if you choose a lighter side weapon that suits you, then you get closer while the animal is still alive. If you choose the "man Cannon", or your "lady Long Ranger" then you close the distance in celebration.
A wise man (we all have one) once told me to burn up lots of powder, they make it new every day. That is how you figure out which rifle is the best.
My 7 mag has 1900 ft lbs left at 750+ yards
Good luck with the rifle, the 338 is a well proven elk round.
What bullet and load are you using in your 7mm mag? Using Ballistic FTE, the Black Hills 154 grain Hornady shows 1900 at about 325 yards. Are you using Bergers?
Thanks!
D.Camilleri
Well-Known Member
Back in the late 70's when I bought my first 7mag, I thought I had a real hot rod. I was pushing 160 gr partitions at 3150 and was making some long clean kills. But I also recovered a fair amount of bullets and I had a fair amount of blacktail deer run a lot further than I liked. Then one year I had a cross canyon shot on a big black bear boar, the gun did its job as I watched the partition hit the bear in the shoulder and watched him bite at the hit. I watched him roll for two hundred yards. I went to recover the big boar and he was gone! No blood trail, nothing. The feeling of a lost trophy is discouraging. That year I knew of at least 3 other big bears shot with 7mm and lost. Later that year while hunting with my dad, we had a chance to take a very large black bear. I gave him the first shot with his 210 gr equipped M-70 338 win mag. The shot and the bear was slammed to the ground and we thought game over. The bear got up and ran like he wasn't touched with a broken shoulder. While on the run, I hit him in the hip with my 7mm, he stumbled and was off again. I placed a final shot through the boiler room right as he was getting ready to disappear into heavy brush and he was done. When we gutted him, I found that the 160 grain partition had not even touched the off side of the rib cage from a 200 yard shot. The only reason the 338 failed to keep the bear down was the straight on shot that broke the shoulder, deflected the bullet and the bullet followed the inside of the hide all the way back to the hind quarter. That year I bought my first 338 and haven't looked back. Now I shoot a 338 rum and I have witnessed more bang flops with this gun than anything else I have ever shot. That being said, I have also made a few less than perfect shots on elk at long ranges and I am convinced that with a lesser caliber, the animal would not have been recovered. Hit anywhere in the upper body with a quality bullet this gun is lethal on elk. I would love to say that every shot I have ever made is a perfect shot, but things happen and sometimes the shot isn't perfect, but I have watched the big 338 make elk so sick they couldn't move and yet I have seen similar shots with smaller calibers made and watched the elk disappear never to be found.
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
Excellent post, My observations exactly. Back in the mid 70's I got on the 7mm-300 wby craze for long range elk. Way more power than a 7mm rem mag. Bragged on it and met Elmer Keith at a book signing. We kinda hit it off and he loved to talk guns. He said the best long range elk rifle was necking the 300 wby up to 338 and not down to 7mm. I argued ballistics, trajectory, etc because I had taken elk over 1000 yards with the 7mm-300 and 175 game kings. He argued killability. He stated the 338 was a far better elk killer than the 7mm and soon I would be shooting one when I gained more experience. I was a youngster full of pee and vinegar, he was a wise old man with great experience.
When I gained more experience and began to see elk lost with 7mm's with shots I felt should have killed the elk I built my first 340 wby after talking to Elmer. Wow! Amazing difference taking large big game with the 338 winchester and 340 weatherby when compared to the little 7mm. Then I upped the anti and built my first 338-378 wby wildcat. Now with over 35 years seeing elk get shot with everything out there I know what an elk rifle is. Elmer was right. I was wrong. But I learned quick.
Hunters can sit around and fantacize about making that perfect shot with there little pee shooters and getting there elk. But hunting ain't perfect and the perfet shot doesn't happen as much as I would like it to. After guiding elk hunters for thirty years I find their talk doesn't equal there shooting abilities at game when it counts. Seen many animals lost to small calibers when a 338 would have done the job. A heavy 338 slug anywhere in the torso and he is one sick puppy and ain't going far before you can get on him for a finishing shot. With a smaller caliber he can go for miles.
I see on here all the time new guys get talked into 7mm's and smaller for elk and I cringe knowing they will lose elk with it on occasion. I have killed elk with every caliber. In 7mm I currently own the 280 AI, 7mm gibbs, 7mm jrs, 7mm rem mag, 7mm-300 wby, 7mm stw and 7mm RUM. Probably some I forgot about which happens often. I know 7mm's. When I go elk hunting for big bulls I always carry a large caliber elk rifle and not one of these 7mm's.
Always remember what I say on here often if you are looking for one rifle to do it all. You can always kill deer with an elk rifle. But never carry a deer rifle elk hunting. Always buy your one rifle to be the most effective for the largest animal you plan on hunting. I guarantee it will do well on the little stuff also.
Also remember on the best of the west tv show they are showing the high shoulder shot dropping animals in there tracks. This can be acheived with most big game cartridges and proper bullets. This is a difficult shot to make in the field many times and should only be used by professional shooters. The target area is small in comparison to a far greater target area if you are shooting a 338 caliber or larger bullet that can drive through an elk at any angle in the torso to disable an elk. In real life situations in most elk country elk are not standing around in the open with pretty broadside shots. When you see an elk in timber you need a rifle capable of driving a bullet through him from any angle. 7mm's and smaller are not good at this. Remember on the show poor hits are always edited out to show the effect they want.
When I gained more experience and began to see elk lost with 7mm's with shots I felt should have killed the elk I built my first 340 wby after talking to Elmer. Wow! Amazing difference taking large big game with the 338 winchester and 340 weatherby when compared to the little 7mm. Then I upped the anti and built my first 338-378 wby wildcat. Now with over 35 years seeing elk get shot with everything out there I know what an elk rifle is. Elmer was right. I was wrong. But I learned quick.
Hunters can sit around and fantacize about making that perfect shot with there little pee shooters and getting there elk. But hunting ain't perfect and the perfet shot doesn't happen as much as I would like it to. After guiding elk hunters for thirty years I find their talk doesn't equal there shooting abilities at game when it counts. Seen many animals lost to small calibers when a 338 would have done the job. A heavy 338 slug anywhere in the torso and he is one sick puppy and ain't going far before you can get on him for a finishing shot. With a smaller caliber he can go for miles.
I see on here all the time new guys get talked into 7mm's and smaller for elk and I cringe knowing they will lose elk with it on occasion. I have killed elk with every caliber. In 7mm I currently own the 280 AI, 7mm gibbs, 7mm jrs, 7mm rem mag, 7mm-300 wby, 7mm stw and 7mm RUM. Probably some I forgot about which happens often. I know 7mm's. When I go elk hunting for big bulls I always carry a large caliber elk rifle and not one of these 7mm's.
Always remember what I say on here often if you are looking for one rifle to do it all. You can always kill deer with an elk rifle. But never carry a deer rifle elk hunting. Always buy your one rifle to be the most effective for the largest animal you plan on hunting. I guarantee it will do well on the little stuff also.
Also remember on the best of the west tv show they are showing the high shoulder shot dropping animals in there tracks. This can be acheived with most big game cartridges and proper bullets. This is a difficult shot to make in the field many times and should only be used by professional shooters. The target area is small in comparison to a far greater target area if you are shooting a 338 caliber or larger bullet that can drive through an elk at any angle in the torso to disable an elk. In real life situations in most elk country elk are not standing around in the open with pretty broadside shots. When you see an elk in timber you need a rifle capable of driving a bullet through him from any angle. 7mm's and smaller are not good at this. Remember on the show poor hits are always edited out to show the effect they want.
meatyrem
Well-Known Member
Through reading these post's, I am really starting to believe that the "energy" that most talk about is meaningless. I think that it is just a number and has no real effect. Small caliber vs. large caliber=same energy levels=larger caliber wins every time. I just would like to hear your thoughts on "energy" because I find myself looking at energy numbers less and less and find it doesn't make much difference at all. The right bullet hitting the intended target within the right velocity window is the ticket, assuming proper placement too. Just my thoughts, want to know if others would agree or to set me on the right path.
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
I got into a lengthy discussion last year on the subject of energy. A guy posted a spread on the energy figures of the 7mm rem mag showing how superior it was. I told from experience there are glitches in the ballistic calculator system for energy when applied to killing big game. It can be used as a refference and that is about it. When I was younger I was a guru on energy and ballistics of every cartridge and bullet on the market. Now I am a guru on how to kill stuff. I pay no attention to energy figures.
Larger calibers give you a better opportunity to kill. Energy figures are just mathematical answers from an equation that in a perfect world would be accurate. Performed in a vaccuum with identical projectiles. Hunting is with many different projectiles and not in a vaccuum. Each projectile performs differently on the media it hits and lessens energy figures to just results of mathematical equations. If you neck the 7mm rem mag to 338 you get the 338 win mag which is a far better elk cartridge. Not because the energy figures show that. Just because it will anchor large big game far better. People argue at long range the 7mm rem mag far surpasses the 338 win mag. First the 7mm rem mag is not to be considered a long range elk rifle by any means and I wouldn't consider shooting at an elk long range with one. At best a 500 yard rifle on elk and I wouldn't do that if it was a big bull. The 338 winchester is easily far more effective on elk size animals at long range or any range no matter what the math says.
I know all the shooters of the popular 7mm rem mag will come on here and try to hammer me. I am not on here because I am concerned what others might say. I am on here to share my experience and people can take that for what it's worth. Doesn't bother me if people disagree but I will state what my experience has been shooting animals with all calibers. Perfect shot with any big game cartridge with the proper bullet equals dead elk. As the shots get more marginal you had better be going up in caliber and weight. Most shots I encounter on elk are marginal and not perfect so I stick to what works in the worst situations and not just the best.
Again I am not saying you need a 338 to kill elk. I am saying your odds are better at killing an elk on the hunt because you are not as limited with shot placement or shot angle.
Larger calibers give you a better opportunity to kill. Energy figures are just mathematical answers from an equation that in a perfect world would be accurate. Performed in a vaccuum with identical projectiles. Hunting is with many different projectiles and not in a vaccuum. Each projectile performs differently on the media it hits and lessens energy figures to just results of mathematical equations. If you neck the 7mm rem mag to 338 you get the 338 win mag which is a far better elk cartridge. Not because the energy figures show that. Just because it will anchor large big game far better. People argue at long range the 7mm rem mag far surpasses the 338 win mag. First the 7mm rem mag is not to be considered a long range elk rifle by any means and I wouldn't consider shooting at an elk long range with one. At best a 500 yard rifle on elk and I wouldn't do that if it was a big bull. The 338 winchester is easily far more effective on elk size animals at long range or any range no matter what the math says.
I know all the shooters of the popular 7mm rem mag will come on here and try to hammer me. I am not on here because I am concerned what others might say. I am on here to share my experience and people can take that for what it's worth. Doesn't bother me if people disagree but I will state what my experience has been shooting animals with all calibers. Perfect shot with any big game cartridge with the proper bullet equals dead elk. As the shots get more marginal you had better be going up in caliber and weight. Most shots I encounter on elk are marginal and not perfect so I stick to what works in the worst situations and not just the best.
Again I am not saying you need a 338 to kill elk. I am saying your odds are better at killing an elk on the hunt because you are not as limited with shot placement or shot angle.
