Do you want a exit wound????

[lerch]

I actually do like tracking an animal and I love the feeling of surprise and joy when you follow a good blootrail to find your present laying under the tree. I also bowhunt a lot and this is actually the way I got into the sport of hunting. Following a animal you shot and finding is a great rush, but starring down a nice buck and absolutly dropping him flat on his @$$ with one shot feels pretty dang nice too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I believe that part of the key to being able to do this is using bullets that create this shock effect me and others have been talking about. Being able to do this i think would come in handy for when you don't want a animal to cross a property line, or if you need to put a animal down that may be able to run and fall and therefeore damaged its headgear. I agree that the rush you get from finding a downed animal off of a blood trail is pretty great, but so is slamming one into the dirt without him ever knowing what happened.

Thanks
Steve

 

[goodgrouper]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are sure messing up alot of meat with your shoulder shots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some meat in the hand is much better than no meat off in the bush somewhere if you catch my drift! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


[ QUOTE ]
go watch a arrow fly through a deer and see if you get all that kenetic energy. They just cut the vitals and let the animal bleed out.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why I said that bullets kill in a totally different manner than arrows in my earlier post. That is apples to oranges.


[ QUOTE ]
The best lesson you can teach a new hunter is the art of tracking. Some were some time for some reason you will miss your "perfect" shot and need to track down that wounded prize animal.


[/ QUOTE ]

Tracking is an important aspect of hunting, but one in which I HOPE LIKE HELL I don't have to use very often when hunting with a rifle!

 

[goodgrouper]

[ QUOTE ]
if you could ask 100 outfitters this question and see what they say.i'll bet 95% would want an exit hole.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is because guides deal with every kind of hunter imagineable. 95% of hunters can't hit the broadside of a barn even if they were INSIDE the barn. So the guide knows that if they are going to have a prayer of finding the animal, they better have a blood trail and a chance for a closer second shot. Now, the 5% that can put the bullet where they want it, watch out!! They make the guides job easy!


PS. You need to read PO Ackleys book about killing burros with sub-caliber bullets. The reason it kills is because the smaller calibers transfer kinetic energy (or in other words, HEAT) faster than big calibers. SOlid or not, the bullets were always fired into the head anyway for a quick kill.

The rest of your post is so self contradicting that I don't even know what you're trying to say. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[LB]

As far as I am concerned, shooting for a shoulder is a big mistake, unless we are talking about dangerous game with very heavy constructed bullets.

A well placed shot through the heart/lungs is by far the most dependable. Forget about the tracking for a moment.

Ponder just how much an animal can move while the bullet is in flight. I do not understand the shoulder shot, for the life of me. Too many things can go wrong, especially with a spitzer bullet, rather than a solid.

On the other hand. Hit in the boiler room, you stand a better chance of a accurate hit because of the size of the target area. And, it is a lethal placement, 100%. Can't say that about a shoulder, can we?

Punch his ticket through the lungs. (with a moderate exit) That's (by far) the best percentage shot. I'm very surprised to read such varied and incorrect opinions. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Good hunting. LB (ducking and running)

 

[Guest]

What do you think is behind the shoulder???

 

[davewilson]

GG,what i'm trying to explain is one reason a pass through is better.some were talking about mushrooming bullets,wound channels,exit holes and shots that don't exit.as far as mushrooming bullets are concerned,it's been proven that a single dia. bullet with a flat front on it will make a larger wound channel than a mushrooming bullet of the same dia. when driven at conventional rifle speeds.the faster the bullet is driven, the greater the advantage it is to the flat nose single dia bullet.this is why a bullet that ZIPS through an animal delivers more shock than one that stops in the animal.as far as outfitters having,as someone put it, a 95% ratio of poor hunters,that's why they would be the perfect ones to ask.bullet style or exit hole won't matter with good shot placement.marginal or poor shot placement would be a better way to evaluate exit hole vs. stay in the animal.if you remember in P.O. Ackley's book he said if he could only have one gun,based on killing power,he would take a 220 swift.as i said before,a 220 with the right solids,is an awesome killing machine.and it's not because the bullets stay inside!

 

[LB]

Well, what do YOU think, Harv? You are suggesting that the shoulder is the proper point of aim for the heart/lung area? Did it come to you in a dream, or what?

The question is: "do you want an exit wound?" The chances for an exit are not very good, if you first have to penetrate the shoulder.

On a side presentation; the heart is usually lower on most game animals and the lungs are "behind" the shoulder....as in, to the rear of the point of the shoulder.

Simple, through the rib cage with a nice clean exit. For me, it's usually about a 1-1½" hole on the off side, which I consider to be perfect performance.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Good hunting. LB

 

[goodgrouper]

[ QUOTE ]
it's been proven that a single dia. bullet with a flat front on it will make a larger wound channel than a mushrooming bullet of the same dia.

[/ QUOTE ]


????????????? Name your source. That goes against everything I have ever read, seen, and personally witnessed. If what you said is true, then why don't cops shoot fmj's at suspects. Why then also do critters run off after being hit with solid Barnes bullets? Why in the heck then does every state in the union OUTLAW full metal jackets?? YOur point here is the MOST OUTLANDISH post I have ever heard on this forum in almost 1 year of being here!!
I will have to go to the doc tomorrow just to have my jaw put back in order from laughing so hard!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[goodgrouper]

[ QUOTE ]
The chances for an exit are not very good, if you first have to penetrate the shoulder.



[/ QUOTE ]

Congratulations! You missed the entire point of the idea that if you hit the shoulder YOU WILL NOT NEED TO TRACK IT!

 

[goodgrouper]

[ QUOTE ]
Hit in the boiler room, you stand a better chance of a accurate hit because of the size of the target area. And, it is a lethal placement, 100%.

[/ QUOTE ]


It will kill most definetly. Will it drop the animal immediately? NO, not always. I have tracked heart shot rutting elk for miles before they finally leaned up against a tree to die. ANd out here in the west, if an elk gets into the timber, you can rest assured it will be the steepest, nastiest place in the canyon to hide.

The shoulder shot WILL always drop the animal because he CAN'T MOVE! ANd the shoulder is slightly smaller than the heart/lungs, but only slightly smaller. However, if you miss the shoulder the wrong way, you will hit the lungs. If you miss the heart/lung area the wrong way, you have a gut shot which is GUARANTEED to start you on a all-night tracking fest while the animal suffers I might add.


[ QUOTE ]
Too many things can go wrong, especially with a spitzer bullet, rather than a solid.



[/ QUOTE ]


Let me get this straight, you are trying to sell the idea to me that a solid bullet shot through the lungs/heart is the best percentage shot you have?!?!? I believe I will buy elsewhere then! Have you ever shot a long range animal through the heart with a non-expanding bullet?? Well I haven't because I know what the HELL I'm doing whether you believe it to be, how'd you put it, "the incorrect opinion" or not!


If you need some proof and you think I'm an untrustworthy source, pick up a copy of John Burn's Beyond Belief. I KNOW he has shot more long range critters than most and he proves the shoulder shot time and time again on video. ALL SHOULDER SHOTS because the man knows as I do that it works!
OK, where's the **** Tylenol?

 

[goodgrouper]

Yet more proof that shoulder shots work. THis is my latest kill. It might interest you to know that she did move after the shot--she tried to get up but couldn't because her shoulder would not support her weight! So she just died instead. Not a bad way to bring home meat for a way that doesn't work huh?! OK, found the TYlenol. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Eaglet]

Slipshot,
I was just going to keep my mouth shut, but will say I agree with you. In Nicaragua Central America where I was born, deer are also very small, we do care much about the meat and we place our shots away from the shoulders for that purpose. I do see that a shoulder shot does have its place but it's not always what I want. My son William, 12 years old at the time, shot a mule deer right on the shoulder with a 243, the entance hole totally destroyed that shoulder and the other shoulder half of it was gone. REALLY if you're going for the meat that's not where I would shoot. I will say that at very long ranges, 700+ yards, a shoulder shot does make sence, specially if it's late in the day.

 

[Sasquatch]

I have successfully hunted with archery, pistol and rifle. The last elk I shot was a high shoulder shot at 350 and he dropped instantly then got up again while I was walking to him. The follow up heart shot dropped him for good. Both bullets stayed in the animal and it was a successfull hunt. the cow I shot the year before was a heart shot with a total pass through at 400 yards and she dropped instantly, another successfull hunt. The antelope that fall was killed with the bow, quartering away at 24 yards. The arrow hit the offside shoulder, dislocated it and snapped. The buck ran 30 feet and dropped with liquid lungs and a free floating heart. the doe I shot the next day was a pass through broadside shot with the bow and she dropped 20 yards away from where she was originally hit. The next fall I shot a yearling antelope buck with the .44 mag super blackhawk with iron sights at about 55 yards, quartering away. I shot about 3" left of where I wanted, and the bullet entered right in the left pit and exiting just in front of the right shoulder. he ran about 50 yards and rolled. The lungs wer nothing but a bloody goo. Yet another sucess.

All very sucessfull hunts with and without pass through shots fired with rifle, pistol and bow. I don't have as much experience as others on this sight, but I don't really care where the lead ends up, as long as point of impact is where I wanted it and it goes into the vitals, including the lungs that are behind that shoulder so many of you are talking about. So far I have been lucky and not had to follow anything more than 50 paces from where I shoot them. I believe this is strictly due to my familiarity with my equipment and only taking shots I know will hit where I want them to.

 

[Buffalobob]

I grew up fairly poor by todays standards and if we had meat for the evening meal oftentimes it was what I could catch or kill. Behind the shoulder with a pass through whether bullet or arrow is what I prefer to minimize meat damage. If it is quartering then I will break the shoulder to get into the chest cavity if using a gun, with a bow I will try to somehow work around the shoulder.
I have shot deer through the chest with small caliber partition bullets and seen them run some considerable distance. This doesn't bother me other than the one occaission that it ran far enough to wind up shot by another hunter. I switched back up to the 240Wby after that being as that did bother me. Doing a lot of bowhunting -tracking is just part of the hunt.

In the end because one cannot control the angle presented by the animal and because I will take a quartering shot if that is what is available, I try to select bullets that will break through the bones and get into the chest cavity at a minumum and I prefer it to exit but that is not mandatory. My experience is that hydrostatic shock (other than on the skull) is less and less important as the animal becomes bigger and bigger. By the time you get into 1000# animals you can leave the concussive force theory at home- bullet energy is devoted to getting through thick hides, breaking large bones and getting into the chest cavity. As somebody said often times the bullets will be found under the off side hide which is elastic and "catches" bullets.

If nobody is shooting at me or attempting to eat me then I do not go looking to deliberately break any bones although I try to shoot bullets that will break their way through what ever and exit but the exit part is secondary to getting into the chest cavity.

P.S. There is the goat shooting experiment that was carried out in Austria( I believe )on pistol bullets if you are into penetration of flat nosed versus hollow point pistol bullets.