delemma...what 338 chambered rifle to start with?

George, Chris,

Thanks for taking time our of your schedules to share info with us.

As you both know, I have been wanting a 338 for a while now.

I have a few questions.

What is the Barrel life of the 338RUM/338LAP

What are the average velocity's one could expect?

Is one inheritly more accurate than the other?

Thanks again
 
More questions?

The Armalite AR30...What are your thoughts on the actions?

Are they worth the effort to rebarrel?
 
DC,
Let me take another angle from George,
In a way you are right, if I was building a LRH or ultra LRH or a 1000 yard bench gun, I wouldn't use a Remmy. It would be Nesika all the way. However, I do build long range sniping, tactical whatever you want to call them rifles in 338 Lapua in Remmys in A2,3,4, and 5s, HTG, etc. Not bench guns, but still plenty capable.
Anyway, I don't need a Lapua for 1000 BR, I got a 6.5 WSM!
grin.gif
Oh which I have specially blended powder under a full moon with three witches and a guy from Toledo! My secret weapon!
wink.gif
 
My brother and I have run both these 700's up over 70k psi more than just a few times, mine is actually currently running right at 70k psi with this 90gr RL25 load with a 210 JLK. We have had ZERO lug setback, not one iota, so go figure...

He backed his load down to 3000 fps for accuracy, mine happens to be doing real well at that level for some reason or another.

The advantage of a custom -

NO ejector for brass to flow into at over 70k psi = easy opening bolt if it were to be enough happen.

BUT, primer pockets will go to hell immediatly and camming out the brass will too at much over 72k psi with Norma, Remington or other brass, this 338 Lapua brass IS holding up well at 70k psi. So really, the capability to run higher than 72k psi or so is not much if your brass only survives once or twice in the hot seat. Unless you're DC and don't mind.
wink.gif


Pressure is not an issue... Point to the ones that proves me wrong. Your brass will fail before it ever happens, anyone that's reloaded long knows it's the weak point.
wink.gif
 
George and others

I personally would rather put a few extra bucks in a "good" custom heavy built action with 3 lugs or larger lugs then the Remington has.

By the time a person buys a rem action and has all the alteration work done to it to accomodate the larger case heads, you could almost buy a Custom action. Why even fool with the Rem.???

For instance, a person buys a Rem action for $350.00 to $500.00.
George, what is the cost to make the bolt alteration for the big case (378 size), true the action completely, Sako extractor and a bolt extension?
Just the way the custom would come.

Now lets remember another point, the Custom actions, Nesika, Hall "G", BAT, Geskie all have a much longer barrel threading area for more barrel support and is very desirable to most shooters. You can never get that from a Rem.

Is it really worth the cost and effort to go with a Rem. action on a Large case, even though you do it?

I would certainly trust a Custom action more so with a big case such as the 338/416 Rigby Imp using 300 gr bullets, before I ever would a Rem.

I run velocity in the 37" barrel (300 Gr Bullets) from my 338/416 RIGBY imp as high as 3310 FPS. 122.5 Grs of WC
No way would the REM handle that load or not with me pulling the trigger anyway.

Brents right, I get two loadings out of that load mentioned above. When I back it down to 117 Gr and 3200 FPS I get up to 7 loadings.
When I'm on a hunting trip out west, I don't really care about a few pieces of brass. That's the least expensive part of my trip.

I would advise anyone on the forum to put a few more bucks into their action choice and buy a good Custom to accomdate the large cases such as the 338/378, 338/416 RIG IMP especially if planning on using the 300 gr bullets.
There are a few 320 Gr 338 Bullets floating around also.
Later
DC
smile.gif
 
PSI and case head diameter determine bolt thrust, bullet weight makes NO difference what so ever, and Darryl has been told this. 50gr and a 500gr bullets at 70k psi will pruduce the SAME thrust on the bolt.
wink.gif


If I dropped my powder charge by 5.5gr like that, I'd hope for AT LEAST 5 more loadings too.
grin.gif
Heck, that'd be a starting load.

I've run the same pressure (70k psi) on about 10% of my cases for a total of 4 loadings now and have felt slight resistance opening the bolt only this last time out on a few of them. The other 90% of the cases I'm using have had a few mild loads through them but mainly mid to high to hot loads, and I can tell no difference between any of them, and unless I overexpand the caseheads and they get tight on me, these cases will last a long **** time at this pressure.

Interesting, when I ran up another 7gr in the 30-338 Lapua Imp using Retumbo and a 210gr JLK, 90gr to 97gr, I gained 352 fps...
 
Now lets take the pressures on up a tad to say 75000 or 80000 and see what the cases do.
Remember the Lapua is "NOT" as big as the 378 or 416 Rigby IMP cases which I am mainly refering to.

True the Lapua cases are very good but, so are the Norma cases in the big stuff. The big stuff I'm refering to again are the 378 Weatherby and the 416 Rigby Imp size cases (mainly), which the Lapua Imp does not compare, as per case capacity.

7 grs of powder increase in a large chambered "30 Cal" bore to gain 300 FPS, that's about right, until you reach a certain point and with certain powders.

The "Main" point Brent is missing here is;
Why fool with a Remington action (which I have several guns chambered on) using cases such as 378 and 416 Rigby IMP, when for very little increase in money, a person can have a custom action which has much better quality, tolerances and strength then any Remington would have?

This decision, each Longrange hunter or 1000 yard Compitition shooter "MUST" consider before jumping into the 378 or 416 size cases.
Again, I certainly would NOT put those size cases or the smaller 338 Lapua on a Remington action, but, that's just my opinion and those who have been in this longrange game longer then me.
I'm including the thoughts of the well known gunsmiths Howard Wolfe and Bruce Baer who have both built World Record 1000 yard compitition and Longrange hunting guns to.

Everyone has the right to chamber anything they want to, "if" they can get a smith to take the responsibility.
For "my" money and piece of mind when using the 416 Rigby IMP and heavy loads such as 122.5 grs, I will be using a large custom action.

You fellows make your own decision but, remember the problems that you "could" experiance because you didn't spend another $200.00 to $400.00 for a real good action.

Remember I'm mainly refering to cases the size of the 378 Weatherby, the 378 Weatherby IMP and the 416 Rigby IMP here and NOT the smaller standard mags.
I guess we can include the 338 Lapua IMP also but it has much less powder capacity then the above mentioned cases do.

Later
DC
smile.gif
smile.gif


[ 01-07-2004: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
 
speaking of strong actions....how is the 1917 enfield action for these rounds? from what I hear the Remington/winchester versions of this action are very strong. seems like this would be an affordable way.

I know it takes some work to make this action usable but how much work is needed in making a custom action usable? I have no idea as to how "finished" a custom action comes from the manufacturer.
 
I understand your points DC, and $400-700 for a trued and converted action and bolt is a chunk of a nice big custom action, but like you guys say, for a drag around field rifle, the tight tolerance customs may, or may not be the right choice, just depend on the crap you go through. If you already have a 700 and just want to open it up and rechamber, the price is obviously considerably less than a custom action.

I for one don't push my loads up to 75-80k psi, but maybe rarely during load development if pressure climbs unexpectedly rapidly at the top, and still I've never blown a primer at 80k psi. I would imagine I'm **** close, and may have just been lucky too. I do know the 700's lugs will handle that pressure in the event it's hit, but I will make a point for you you haven't made, and it might be fair to say if you did comprimise the case and gas was released, you might find small pieces of the Sako extractor could be let out the right raceway back toward you, no guarantee, but no guarantee it wouldn't... that's one thing the Savage offers proection against.

At any rate, pressure is pressure, reguardless of powder charge used, and casehead size on the cases are the same, thrust will be identical on the big 460 WBY with 500's if pressure is the same.

Remember, at a certain pressure, the brass will begin to under go plastic deformation and begin to squeeze into every opening available at the rear, usually at 70-75k psi it can be seen pretty vividly. 75-80k psi is a range that just ruins brass, but also you begin to run the risk of escaping gas in your face through the primer and weak spots at the rear of the case... A full case rupture on an M1-A I had, which destroyed the action, bolt, stock and op rod, clip, etc... let me know it's not a fun experience. Pressure was 81k psi when that happened using an unknown powder.

At less than 70k psi the big Weatherby cases will start to expand rapidly on the belt and finally they will not chamber, as this area cannot be sized back down. On the beltless Rigby case, this casehead expansion causes the brass to expand just in front of the web and can be sized back down, but only to a point a little better than the belted version... once the casehead expands to equal the chamber ID, your through using those cases, as the die will NOT size the web, or casehead down, only in front of it.

If you don't keep the pressure down to the point you're only getting .0005", ya 5 ten thou expansion or less on the belt on the second firing of virgin brass, with a load any hotter than that, the case will KEEP growing in dia across the web at that rate and you'll end up with case too tight to chamber in very short order. At anything much over 70k psi, you can't ever keep this from happening the pressure is just too great. Loosening primer pockets are simply a symptom of this excessive casehead expansion begining to happen. At 65-70k psi, the casehead will expand on virgin brass, but then will not expand any further, and primer pockets will not open up either. The softer the brass, and or the the thinner the web, the less pressure the casehead will handle and stay put and not expand further beyond the initial expansion.

The point is, the brass is the weakest link by far, not the action here. I practice with the brass I hunt with, so longevity does matter to me. Darryl runs his like a top fuel dragster, one trip and that's all that matters, top speed is primary, everything else comes at a higher price beacuse it's secondary.

For me, brass is like a partner which I spend a lot of time on, get to know and come to depend on, and I hate to throw it away, I don't care what I paid for it either.
wink.gif
 
Brent

You said;_______________________________
Darryl runs his like a top fuel dragster, one trip and that's all that matters, top speed is primary, everything else comes at a higher price beacuse it's secondary.
___________________________________________

Your close on that statement.
It's "two trips" or two loads from my big cases when I'm on an Ultra Longrange hunt to Colorado and load the heavy load. 7 loadings with the lighter load. That means I can get two season out of the same cases using the top velocity load. A small price to pay on trips like as we have had over the years. Hunting brass is made to be replaced as far as I'm concerned.

My hunting loads are all made for speed and "decent" accuracy so I can push the heavy bullets such as the 240gr 30 cals and the 300 gr 338s to their "top" killing potential .
Has worked for us for "many" years now and I see no reason to change.

When going to 1000 yard compititions with any other standard or imp mag chambering or standard cases, my loads are loaded way down so the brass will last most of the season.

To each his own on this topic.
I'll keep shooting my customs with big cases and you can continue to use the Remingtons. Good Luck though.
smile.gif
I've seen 6 actions (Rems and 70 Winchesters) blown by "one" fellow who use to "really" push the velocity envelope. His name was Herb Miller and he died in a fire several years ago.
They blew into pieces not just a lock up situation and he lived through 6 of these happenings.

Later
DC
smile.gif


[ 01-07-2004: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
 
Dr John

The customs are usually finished from the manufacturer and need nothing but your choice of triggers.

Bat, Nesika, Hall "G" and Geskie actions are very desireable for the big cases such as the 338/378 Weatherby, 338/416 Rigby Imp or any magnum cartridge for that matter.
There are other customs that are very good also.

Later
DC
 
Point wasn't you only get one loading, most Top Fuel motors might too, they just don't risk it and tear 'em down after each run just in case. Of course things are changed during this tear down, but a second run might be possible if they weren't.

.....

In all the discussions we've had in the last couple years on this very subject, it's funny you've never mentioned this before, or even in your first post here... even when I asked about that very thing.

This, and the guy is now dead and can't be spoken to....
rolleyes.gif


[ 01-08-2004: Message edited by: Brent ]
 
Brent

Are you trying to start someting "again" concerning my truthfulnes? Over the years I have said nothing but the truth on this or any forum regardless of what "you" think. If you can't accept what I say as the truth, well, you know the old saying.

I had forgot about Herb Miller and his experiments and quest for the highest velocity he could get. Herb was one of a kind.
He was one who would not just go up 1 or 1/2 a grain at a time and it caught up with him on 6 occasions before the old boy died.
He was well known at Williamsport and also a steel worker who died in a fire at his home in Brockway, PA a few years back.

I gave the mans name and if you want to call Ray Romain, the gunsmith, (814-265-1948) he will give the details about Herb Miller who he also knew quite well.

The last time he blew an action he came to the range with a face full of fresh pock marks from a rifle blowing up and he had a picture of the rifle with him holding it and the whole side of it was gone along with the side of the stock. He even brought the rifle to show everyone.
Herb use to "brag" about blowing actions as if it was something he should do when testing high powered loads. Point was, he blew some of them with chamberings such as a 220 Swift and one I remember as a 240 Gibbs, that he told us about.
So they were "not" all big cartridges as we have been talking about. Some were however imp. magnums.
I didn't agree with his testing then and of course don't now.

Maybe you should be a bit more trustworthy in your accusations?

There are lots of things I have forgot over the years in this shooting game and some of them will surface as time goes by, just give the old brain time.

Herb was an embarresment to any rifle testing program that most try to do in a correct and safe way.

Later
DC
As an add on here---I really don't like talking about the dead and maybe that's why I had forgot or didn't want to bring it up at the time. It has been a few years now since Herb died.
Didn't see your "entire" post when you asked about it either or I would have mentioned it then.
If herb had used custom actions, I believe he may have locked them up, but the factory actions did "in fact" blow out the sides. Good thing he was at his home testing range (beside his house) and not at a public range.
These are facts Brent, check it out if you wish.

[ 01-08-2004: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
 
xring
I do not think you will even need to rebarrel the AR30, it is worth every penny in my book. I just picked one up and it is shooting under 1/2 moa out of the box. I still like my Timberwolf more but the AR30 is such a great value I just had to have one.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 21 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.
Top