Cronograph's ??

[Trickymissfit]

I have long since decided to stay out of the ever continuing chronograph arguments. You all will still be doing thing long after I'm cold and in the ground!

I see guys using just about every brand you can think of at the range from time to time. They all have one thing in common; they are constantly adjusting this and that and trying to simply make them perfect. Most of their problems start out with the mounting systems they use. They pick up a cheap $15 tripod (or worse) and the chronograph moves all over the place as the bullet travels thru it. Any movement is error! Then you watch and wait for the guy setting his whizz bang so & so chronograph up at the range, and he does get it setup fairly quickly. Never levels it to the earth's surface. Never makes sure everything is tight. Then is back out there every five or ten shots tweaking it! It's always the chronograph's fault, when it really is the end users fault (I wanted to use another phrase). Most guys just eyeball the distance from the muzzel to the first cell, and can't figure out why they are not consistent. A couple inches won't matter much, but a couple feet will! They never quite get the bullet path in the center, and that's another major problem. How many of us keep a good log book that enters in the ambiant temperature and true wind and direction. Is the sun very bright or very overcast?

No brand names need be mentioned. But a properly setup chronograph usually works properly. The price usually gives one a few more doodads to further confuse his trane of thought. I personally miss not having a printer, but 90% of the guys I know that have one with a printer either have it go south or toss the data in the trash can setting right behind them. Somebody said he had a chronograph with a USB port!! Now that's a worth while addition that every chrongraph should come with. But being able to use an SD car or a Compact Flash card would be just as good. I couldprobably load all the data on a card from two week's worth of shooting on one 4 megabite card.
gary

 

[rinodods]

I have long since decided to stay out of the ever continuing chronograph arguments. You all will still be doing thing long after I'm cold and in the ground!

I see guys using just about every brand you can think of at the range from time to time. They all have one thing in common; they are constantly adjusting this and that and trying to simply make them perfect. Most of their problems start out with the mounting systems they use. They pick up a cheap $15 tripod (or worse) and the chronograph moves all over the place as the bullet travels thru it. Any movement is error! Then you watch and wait for the guy setting his whizz bang so & so chronograph up at the range, and he does get it setup fairly quickly. Never levels it to the earth's surface. Never makes sure everything is tight. Then is back out there every five or ten shots tweaking it! It's always the chronograph's fault, when it really is the end users fault (I wanted to use another phrase). Most guys just eyeball the distance from the muzzel to the first cell, and can't figure out why they are not consistent. A couple inches won't matter much, but a couple feet will! They never quite get the bullet path in the center, and that's another major problem. How many of us keep a good log book that enters in the ambiant temperature and true wind and direction. Is the sun very bright or very overcast?

No brand names need be mentioned. But a properly setup chronograph usually works properly. The price usually gives one a few more doodads to further confuse his trane of thought. I personally miss not having a printer, but 90% of the guys I know that have one with a printer either have it go south or toss the data in the trash can setting right behind them. Somebody said he had a chronograph with a USB port!! Now that's a worth while addition that every chrongraph should come with. But being able to use an SD car or a Compact Flash card would be just as good. I couldprobably load all the data on a card from two week's worth of shooting on one 4 megabite card.
gary

All very good reasons why I switched to a magnetospeed recently. Very hard to setup incorrectly, doesn't care if it is sunny or dark, don't have to go down the range to set it up, no tripod needed, measures at the muzzle, keeps all my string data on the SD card which I can open in excel and well its just awesome.

 

[Trickymissfit]

All very good reasons why I switched to a magnetospeed recently. Very hard to setup incorrectly, doesn't care if it is sunny or dark, don't have to go down the range to set it up, no tripod needed, measures at the muzzle, keeps all my string data on the SD card which I can open in excel and well its just awesome.

one small problem with the setup (and I mean very small) is that the data can't actually be compaired with the book data due to the distance from the muzzel. But that dosn't make it inaccurate, but just slightly different. The one serious advantage it has is that the setup is virtually the same everytime it's used; which is better than any of the others. I also think clamping anything out on the end of the barrel is going to have an effect on the shot string in placement and group size. How much is debatable.
gary

 

[Engineering101]

There are 3 chronos I would consider owning. Ohler 35, CED Millenium II and CE ProChrono Digital – the best value by far being the last one though the IR sky screens that are optional for the CED Millenium II are nice if you like to keep shooting as it is getting dark. I don't like anything hanging on the gun barrel as the added weight will shift point of impact and "tune" accuracy to make it better or worse.

My best chrono trick - use a boresite laser to align it. Point your rifle at the target and insert a boresite laser. Put clear plastic targets in each sky screen that are marked with a grid. When the laser hits the grid in both screens in the same place it is aligned. Do this and it will be aligned in both the pitch and yaw axis and will read as accurate as it can. Don't do this and it usually will be misaligned which will cause it to read low in proportion to the misalignment. Also, measure the distance from muzzle to the center of the chrono. I always put mine at 4 yards. After shooting, correct velocities back to the muzzle using bullet BC and you ballistics program.

 

[D.ID]

I would have to concede that 90% of the erroneous results of chronograph use are user related and not mechanical.
I have always tried to be technically proper in my set ups and go threw all the motions and still had trouble off and on. Hence my overall opinion.
Just for the record: The reason I often find myself on the flip side of this debate is that all my discrepancies ceased to exist when I quit using my chronograph. Not just cheaper or faster but actually better more reliable data resulted from measuring gravitational drop from a 100 yrd zero to a 20moa hold needed to connect at 870yrds. After using that known trajectory to establish my velocities instead of my chrono I no longer needed to cheat my own numbers, no longer needed to fudge to get the calculators to align with the reality. I tested my loads for accuracy at those ranges with the same rounds. Saving time and barrel life.
The barrel mounted models may offer more consistency in speed tracking but would in all likely hood eliminate the ability to fine tune a load at the same time.
My method of measuring drops lets me, fine tune a load, check long range accuracy, verify drops and establish my velocity all at once without buying anything extra or messing with set up.

 

[FEENIX]

FEENIX confirms his chronograph is accurate using a hand-held stop watch, and what's good enough for him is good enough for the rest of the world. No humor attempted. Ooops... I'm so sorry FEENIX. Here's your humor...

Typical elitist ... not sorry at all! gun)

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f258/lara3ec/arrogance-obama-president-taxes-********-democrats-election-demotivational-poster-1232346652_zps02ae4832.jpg

 

[BMF]

I would have to concede that 90% of the erroneous results of chronograph use are user related and not mechanical.
I have always tried to be technically proper in my set ups and go threw all the motions and still had trouble off and on. Hence my overall opinion.
Just for the record: The reason I often find myself on the flip side of this debate is that all my discrepancies ceased to exist when I quit using my chronograph. Not just cheaper or faster but actually better more reliable data resulted from measuring gravitational drop from a 100 yrd zero to a 20moa hold needed to connect at 870yrds. After using that known trajectory to establish my velocities instead of my chrono I no longer needed to cheat my own numbers, no longer needed to fudge to get the calculators to align with the reality. I tested my loads for accuracy at those ranges with the same rounds. Saving time and barrel life.
The barrel mounted models may offer more consistency in speed tracking but would in all likely hood eliminate the ability to fine tune a load at the same time.
My method of measuring drops lets me, fine tune a load, check long range accuracy, verify drops and establish my velocity all at once without buying anything extra or messing with set up.

I agree with this stand.....mostly. I say that because a chrono can eliminate waisted rounds. At 100 or 200 yds a load may be extremely accurate but may have a 30,50, or even 70 fps ES. You won't find that out until you start shooting past 500~ yds. Then you have to go back to 200yds with a new load and start again. For me, that's where my chrono saves me time and rounds. I have an Oehler 35 and from what I can tell, it's pretty darn accurate. Therefore I don't even shoot a particular load long range until I achieve a desired E.S.

I still do the same thing D.ID does, and back check every load at particular distances to verify that it drops what it's supposed too. So far, no number (fps) tweaking. A chrono is a fun tool, not necessary, but fun when they work. Like I said before though, I agree with D.ID, and there's nothin more accurate than actual gravity bullet drops to determin velocity.........assuming the B.C. is correct.

 

[D.ID]

Your comment about bc being accurate brings up another point of this discussion. I do not care what the numbers actually are, if it's 2837fps or 2976fps it makes no difference as long as it is 20moa at 870yrds 4000ft elv. in 75 degree weather (or whatever) as predicted.
Same could be said about bc weather it is .768 or .785 does not mean much to me as long as what ever numbers I am basing my calculations on give solid accuracy and predictable results.
As long as my calculations put me dead on my target the numbers are just numbers.
ES will show it's self plain as day at 800yrds, I do not even shoot at one or two hundred yards anymore except for initial zero. All my load development is done at 420yrds then zeroed at 100 and drop tested at 7-800 depending on what scope I'm using..

 

[FEENIX]

FEENIX confirms his chronograph is accurate using a hand-held stop watch, and what's good enough for him is good enough for the rest of the world. No humor attempted. Ooops... I'm so sorry FEENIX. Here's your humor...

Yeah, I understand, and that's really all I was shooting for. It's difficult to know what everyones' intended use of a chronograph entails. Which means it's also difficult to provide meaningful feedback to questions unless the specifics of the intended use are defined.

Anybody posting comments in response to the original poster's question that hasn't used their chronograph in tandem with a proof chronograph for an extended period of time, is basing their opinion on a gut-feeling guess - and nothing more.

There you go talking about yourself again!

 

[Pdvdh]

There you go talking about yourself again!

Ouch. Oweeee.

Poor FEENIX. Poor, poor soul. More than three hours of stewing and brewing, and that's your best shot?
Been 10 hours since your last Post so here, let me hep ya along; go ahead and type "Did not." Then I type "Did so."

 

[Pdvdh]

For me, that's where my chrono saves me time and rounds. I have an Oehler 35 and from what I can tell, it's pretty darn accurate. Therefore I don't even shoot a particular load long range until I achieve a desired E.S.

Bingo!

 

[Pdvdh]

Your comment about bc being accurate brings up another point of this discussion. I do not care what the numbers actually are, if it's 2837fps or 2976fps it makes no difference as long as it is 20moa at 870yrds 4000ft elv. in 75 degree weather (or whatever) as predicted.
Same could be said about bc weather it is .768 or .785 does not mean much to me as long as what ever numbers I am basing my calculations on give solid accuracy and predictable results.
As long as my calculations put me dead on my target the numbers are just numbers.
ES will show it's self plain as day at 800yrds, I do not even shoot at one or two hundred yards anymore except for initial zero. All my load development is done at 420yrds then zeroed at 100 and drop tested at 7-800 depending on what scope I'm using..

This approach can work well if you practice under the same environmental conditions you hunt in. Taken to the optimum, you set up your targets where you expect to ambush the game animal and then shoot enough to develop your drop data before the animal steps out where your target used to be.

With known and correct MV and BC (which can both be determined shooting over a chronograph during load development), a hunter whose limited to practicing at sea level can head out to hunt at 4000 or 10,000 feet. With accurate MV and BC, the hunter can use a quality ballistics software program and develop site and circumstance specific dope for any set of environmental conditions (variable station pressures and temperatures and winds) and shooting conditions (variable slopes, yardages, azimuths, latitudes). Again, the approach I'm identifying is helpful for guys who live in the lowlands and may have limited options to practice and develop measured drop charts at 4000 to 10,000 foot elevations in variable temperatures, yet hunt at elevations that vary from near sea level to 10,000 feet elevation. Employing a ballistics program to develop corrective dope for all environmental and shooting conditions encountered after the long range load has been developed does require accurate MV and BC.

 

[D.ID]

I hear that and while I spend most of my time between 3k-4500ft. I have got my rifle a bit higher on occasion and had no trouble recalculating effectively. The Match bullets in green or yellow have bean fine: using listed bc and velocity reverse engineered this way.
.
I am claiming my velocity to be accurate when using a quality bullet, just saying I aint chasing any particular number. Just Whatever it takes to make these calculations repeatable. If you can get it dead on at 3k under a documented set of conditions, the calculators can compensate it effectively for 7k or any other environmental changes without any hassle, at least that is the case in the testing I have done.

 

[D.ID]

If you where limited to the pistol range (200-) for load development, then you would have no choice but to use a chrono, but if that is the case: you have no business hunting at long range if you can't train at those ranges.