Considering options for a long range rifle

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by JPHunter, Nov 26, 2013.

  1. JPHunter

    JPHunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    66
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Hi fellas,
    I'm wanting to get a proper long range rifle setup in the next twelve months and am just thinking through options. I don't want to say I'm working on a budget setup but money is a relative factor to consider.
    Also any gun, or scope or anything hunting you guys have will typically be 30-60% more expensive in Australia.
    My goal is to be able to target shoot and hunt comfortably out to 1000 m (1093 yds). I'd like to go further but that's what I'd be happy with if it's all I could manage.

    For calibre I'm thinking 338 Lapua at this stage. Also considering 338WM, 338RUM and I guess 300RUM but prefer the first 3.

    For rifle I'm thinking Savage 10/110 FCP HS Precision (If I go the 338 Lapua). That gun is about $2500 in Australia.

    For the scope I'm thinking Nightforce 8-32x56mm BR (About $1500)

    Projectiles I still have no idea, maybe Barnes LRX or Berger Hunting projectiles.

    What are peoples thoughts? Happy to consider any recommendations or opinions about the setup.

    Thanks in advance guys
    JP
     
  2. 300whisper

    300whisper Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,362
    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    That sounds like an excellent start. I have never owned a 338 Lapua. I did have a 300 RUM, Savage 116 Bear Hunter. With a nikon 3-9x40 prostaff I was hitting a 12x12 in steel plate at 600 yards. I want a 110 HS and from guys at my range and at a couple of gunshops in my town tell me the Savage 338 series are impressive out of the box...Also, with the scope. Its a night force so I dont think you can go wrong in that department. The one I used from a guy at my range ran circles around my nikon monarchs. Can't help you with reloading. Still learning in that department.
     

  3. Brewer

    Brewer Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    304
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Glad to hear you are wanting to build a long range rifle. there are lots of questions that you can ask yourself to get the answers you are wanting. you have addressed range, what game are you wanting to hunt? how are your shooting skills i.e. is recoil an issue? as far as your load and projectiles brand, you will have to wait and see what your gun likes. as far as bullet weight, as a general rule, the heavier the bullet, the better the BC and the better it flies. so in my opinion, you want to shoot the heaviest bullet you can in your caliber because you get better downfield accuracy. The 338 is a horse, but if you can handle the recoil and the $$ you need to feed it, then you are golden. Having said that, a well placed shot is the best thing you can do to take an animal, bigger can cause accuracy issues because they are both expensive to shot and therefore practice is limited and recoil is an accuracy factor too. the Nightforce is an excellent choice, no better scope for the money period. If you have access to custom builders down under, you may want to chose an action like the Remington 700 or custom and then add a barrel and stock. building is a little more expensive but from the right guy, its well worth the money. Good luck with your project.
     
  4. JPHunter

    JPHunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    66
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Great info guys thanks,
    The game I'll be targetting for these longer shots will be Sambar in Australia, possibly the occasional red deer as well and on my annual trip to NZ tahr and chamois.
    for recoil, I've never shot a 338 Lap or WM, I own a sako 85 in 300WM and the recoil on that I'm more than comfortable with. I'd look at getting a limbsaver or something for it if possible to reduce it though.
    I should've worded the projectile question better, I know I'll have to find what shoots best in the gun but I meant what is better as a long range/hunting projectile performance wise so that I can try them first.
    Thanks again,
    JP
     
  5. JPHunter

    JPHunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    66
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    My knowledge with getting custom stuff done is very limited and as you said it can run pretty expensive, I do have a mate in NZ that is a highly respected gun smith that I have considered getting to do the job though I know it would be about double the price of a savage.
     
  6. Brewer

    Brewer Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    304
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    The red deer and the Sambar look like GREAT hunts. Makes me wish I lived in the outback. as far as the recoil, I have tried the limb saver and I think it messes me up more than helps because it moves on my shoulder when I fire the rifle. you may have a different experience though. A muzzle break is absolutely paramount. I have a one on my 300 WM and it makes the recoil manageable. I cant imagine a 338 Lapua without a break...

    as far as the money, I would move away from that 338 if $$ is a concern because the cost of shooting. I read an analysis once on competitive shooting. even though you may spend $2000 AUS on a nightforce and $2500 on a rifle, you will put at least $3500 through it in ammo. I am thinking you will be spending $2.50 every time you pull the trigger even if you are loading with a cheap bullet for practice. the 300 winmag is regarded as adequate for elk in the states, so I don't think you would need the 338. Of course, I would love to have a 338 Lapua because they are SWEET rifles.

    I am building a 6.5-06 right now on a Remington 700 action that I will take elk hunting. I figure I have $500 in the action (bought a used stainless sps rifle) $800 in the installed barrel, $400 in the bedding and stock, $200 in the Jewel Trigger and for now I using a Burris 5-20x50 fullfeild. I am saving for a nightforce ($1800 minimum in the states). have brass & dies.... $350 in that stuff. so lets see that's $2250 USD pretty close to your $2500 I think. I am having Hart do the barrel and bedding. Again, I don't know what the costs are in Aus. But remember, its more about who is running the reamer in the barrel, not the barrel itself. get a good barrel, but get a better gunsmith.
     
  7. JPHunter

    JPHunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    66
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Haha yeh Australia is a bit deceiving from what you see in the movies. All the deer live on the east coast where it's nice and green and we get decent rainfall. The outback is north/north west and that's where the pigs, buffalo, Banteng, brumbies, donkeys, camels, dingoes and crocs live. Down south it's just deer, kangaroos and a few wild dogs.

    I'd definitely be getting a muzzlebreak for it that's for sure! Interesting what you say about the recoil pad and makes perfect sense, guess I'll just have to try that out and see if it works for me.

    Yeh look I"m far from set on what I get but I realise the cost of shooting it and that doesn't bother me. When I said money was an issue I meant that I can't pay $7k for a Sako TRG 42 or $4.5k on a Schmidt und Bender Scope sorta thing.
    My point with the prices was just to give people who wanted to help with advice the inflated cost of everything we have here.

    I know elk are tough and you guys have a lot of other animals that take some putting down even moreso than ours but our sambar are really tough and I'm just keeping that in mind that if I want to shoot out to that 1000m mark eventually I'm going to have a round with enough energy left to deposit some hurt at the other end. Which is why I'd shy away from say another 300WM. I'm happy to use it out to 600m comfortably and I'll go further I just don't want to lose animals. Especially when running Barnes TTSX 180's that need around 2000fps to expand properly.

    None of the calibres we're talking about are affected by this but a thing we always have to be concious of is that the bare minimum legal calibre for deer hunting is a .270 win. Ridiclous that a .264 cant be used on a deer as I'd love one but that's just how it is here.

    That sounds like a good setup you're building, I'll be interested to know how it turns out.
    Our problem is definitely the cost, for example that exact Jewell trigger in Aus is $450.
    It's stupid, I just ordered a TC muzzleloader from the states and to get it here literally doubles the price.

    I'm taking all of your info on board though and it's really helpful, appreciating it alot!
     
  8. rpierce

    rpierce Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    257
    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2009
    What about the 338 edge? They shoot great and don't require the lapua bolt face. Grab a long action remington 700 and have it trued up. Also I believe the 338 edge Bertram brass is made in your country. Im about done load testing mine with 300 gr bergers as its shooting under an inch at 300, the vertical at 300 has been consistently around .3" with this load. The 1000 yard vertical is right around 4 inches. Its been really windy here the last few weeks, 15 mph+ winds. Anxious to shoot groups when its not real windy. Ive been waiting for a calmer day so me and a customer can take our edges out to 1500+ yards. The edge is just another option for you to consider.


    Ryan Pierce
    Piercision Rifles
     
  9. JPHunter

    JPHunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    66
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    I've been getting advice in Australia from a hunting forum, though I do trust the word of people from here more, and what's getting a lot of Kudos is a Remington 700 Sendero II in 300WM. What are peoples thoughts on them for a 1000 yd gun? Will they still have the down range energy with say a 190gn Berger Hunting rnd to put down an elk sized animal at that range or would I be better sticking with the original plan of a larger calibre?
     
  10. angus-5024

    angus-5024 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,132
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    If I were running a 300 win mag I would go with a Berger 215 hybrid. In the LRH game b.c and s.d mean more than velocity. The 215's can get going fast to due to a short bearing surface.

    I wouldn't stray away from the .338 if you want a true hammer on Red Stag. A 300 Win will definitely get it done, just that the .338's do it better.
    The Senduro is a great platform. You could always re-barrel to .338 Edge or RUM when the barrel is cooked.

    The thing I would change in your setup is the scope. 8x on the bottom end is way to much optic unless you are shooting prairie dogs. If a trophy stag jumps up at 25 yards you will have some choice words running through your head.
    I would look at a 3.5-15x50 or at a maximum 5.5-22x50. I do most of my hunting with a .338 RUM topped with a 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 (but would rather use a NF) and the field of view is just big enough that I can shoot something at 15 yards if I try really hard. It is more than ample for 1200 yards too.
    I have shot 980 yards with my .243 and a 2.5-10x44 Vortex pst (coyote rifle), so 15x should be plenty.

    I would also look at the MOAR reticle or the NP-R1 reticles or if your a metric guy (much better if your country uses it) the MIL-R reticule is VERY nice. reticles are a valuable tool to LR marksmen.
     
  11. JPHunter

    JPHunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    66
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    This is actually what is starting to make the most sense from my perspective for both money and ability.

    I know what you're saying about the scope and it's something still on my mind.
     
  12. Brewer

    Brewer Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    304
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    The Remington 700 is a great action or platform. when you buy any Remington 700 rifle, you are getting a good action. when you spend more on the sendero, you get a nicer stock and a heaver barrel. The heavy barrel is nice, but its not any more accurate than a pencil barrel, you are just getting more steel. if you want a good barrel, you have to have someone cut it for you and blueprint your action. if you buy factory 700 action, you may as well get the cheapest one you can find (even used because actions don't wear out) because all the 700 actions come out of the same bin. you are not getting a better action or barrel with a sendero or any other more expencive model, they are just prettier and heaver. no standard factory rifle, IMHO, is worth anything past 600 yards and that is with a really really good guy behind the trigger. if you want 1000 yards or meters, you have to go custom, there is just no other way around it.
     
  13. MudRunner2005

    MudRunner2005 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,078
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Wrong! The heavier barrel IS more accurate because it has more material on the sides of the bore. Which in-turn will reduce barrel-whip, because the barrel is more stiff.

    Also wrong... If this is the case, then why do you NEVER hear about Senderos getting sent back to Remington to have them worked on for accuracy issues? I have shot and even owned 700 sporters that wouldn't shoot, but none of my Senderos and 5R MilSpec rifle have ever been anything but surgically accurate.
     
  14. Brewer

    Brewer Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    304
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Dear Mudrunner. I have to take up exception here. Your personal experience (and your friends) does not prove any urban legend to be true. I just spoke with a Remington tech support on the phone named Zack (800)-243-9700) to confirm that I was not blowing smoke. For the record, Zack said that when you buy a Sendaro as opposed to an SPS you get the following: the same trigger, the same action, the same processes that cut the rifling's and chamber. What you get that is different is that the barrel weighs more, it has been polished, has been fluted, and there is an extra check to make sure there are no tooling marks on the rifle. You also get a nicer stock.

    Now, having said that, you have a point on the barrel mostly because of the added weight, and, it gives you some stiffness. I think we all believe universally that these are accuracy producing features. In my opinion, at best, they may add 100-200 yards to the accuracy of your rifle. That doesn't turn a 500 yard gun into a 1000 yard gun which is what the original poster stated. Zack said that Remington makes no greater accuracy claims with either rifle.

    My point was not to say that its not a more accurate rifle (albeit, splitting hairs) My point was that if you want to spend another $800, I feel it would be better spent buying a barrel and a good gunsmith yielding a 1500 yard capable rifle as opposed to a 700 yard rifle. I am in no way saying that the SPS and sendaro are the same and that one is not worth more than the other. My claim was regarding an accuracy vs cost comparison. I did not mention this, and I appoligize for that my friend. I should be more complete in my writing in the future.

    I hope you take me as a friend, I don't mean to sound aggressive. we all have our opinions and our favorites and sometimes we spend our money believing one thing and then learn later that what we thought, may not have been the case, but our money is spent, and the salesman has collected his commission. I am not trying to start an argument, I am trying to help a guy not put his hard earned money in the wrong place. :)