Competition Dies?

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Kenster-Boy, Apr 27, 2005.

  1. Kenster-Boy

    Kenster-Boy Well-Known Member

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    I was told by a freind of mine that I needed to get some competition dies to bring my reloading to the next level and was wondering if they are any better and if so what ones do I need? The Seating and the Full Length sizing die? He said that it would help to get the bullet into the case a little straiter and he said that it would just all in all help the accuracy of my reloads.

    I have always used just the standard dies from RCBS and didn't even know that they made the competition dies and was wondering if there is any truth to what he told me? If any of you could give me some guidance and some insight on this it would be much appreciated.

    Oh and I reload for my 7mm rem mag.
     
  2. Ballistic64

    Ballistic64 Well-Known Member

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    I went with the Redding Comp dies for my 338 LM.It'll be the first time I'm using them as well.
    If your main concern is bullet alignment,Bersin has a new alignment tool out that looks pretty interesting.
    Besides better bullet alignment,the comp dies usually let you control the neck sizing with different size bushings along with more precise mic adjustments for the amount of the neck to be resized and bullet depth.
     

  3. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    Have them for all my calibers. Wouldn't be without them for absolute accuracy and EASE of loading.

    Reddings are my personal favorite of the factory type, and they make making adjustments so much easier because of the floating supporting sleeve and the micrometer tops.

    Probably the best set to get is the Redding Competition Neck die set. It comes with a comp neck sizer, comp seater, and a body die for just pushing the shoulder back without touching the neck. I use this last die just when the brass won't go back in the chamber and I push the shoulder back only about .001-.002"

    The bushings mentioned earlier also have many, many advantages that can be found on Redding website: www.reddingreloading.com
     
  4. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    First off, you need to find out if you have a problem. If your sizing die rod is not true, it can bend the neck as the expander ball is pulled through. This causes excessive runout and runout is bad for accuracy.

    Measure your ammo after each stage to determine if runout is being created. Of course, compare to the fired case just to make sure your chamber is straight and true. Odds are it is.

    For many cartridges, best neck tension for hunting rds is 3 thou under bullet diameter. You can get that by using a standard die, a bushing die, or a collet neck die.

    I usually don't find a problem with the seating process but some seating stems are wonky.

    Measure your ammo and find out what you need.

    Jerry
     
  5. kraky2

    kraky2 Well-Known Member

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    Jerry has it right. If you don't have a problem you simply don't have a problem. I've seen tons of people have problems after they've bought the fancy bushing dies. Competition this and competition that. If you have good brass with good neck tension it doesn't matter what dies made it. I can almost guarantee you that if you give me a set of hornady dies and let me work with your brass and fine tune those dies I can make 90% of your loaded rounds come out to .003" and under for runout and your neck tension will be very consistant. From here on out the MOST IMPORTANT ACCURACY FACTORS WILL BE IN PLAY....and in my book those factors will be how the bullet, powder, seating depth, match the harmonics of your barrel. Thats where 95% of your accuracy comes from!!
     
  6. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I've seen tons of people have problems after they've bought the fancy bushing dies.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I would be willing to bet not near as many problems as people with standard dies.


    [ QUOTE ]
    If you don't have a problem you simply don't have a problem

    [/ QUOTE ]

    He didn't say he had a problem, he asked if he should upgrade.


    [ QUOTE ]
    Competition this and competition that. If you have good brass with good neck tension it doesn't matter what dies made it.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    I couldn't disagree <font color="blue"> MORE!! </font>
    Good brass is definetly important, but can still be oversized (work hardened over time) and have TOO MUCH grip with standard dies and that can be adjusted with the comp dies.


    [ QUOTE ]
    I can almost guarantee you that if you give me a set of hornady dies and let me work with your brass and fine tune those dies I can make 90% of your loaded rounds come out to .003" and under for runout and your neck tension will be very consistant.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Only 90%?!?! And only .003"?!? My comp dies= 99% and less than .0015!



    [ QUOTE ]
    and in my book those factors will be how the bullet, powder, seating depth, match the harmonics of your barrel. Thats where 95% of your accuracy comes from!!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Agreed, but all those deal with your brass and if your brass isn't perfect, your accuracy CAN"T BE either!


    Bushing dies are nothing new. Benchresters have been using them for decades because they produce the best results period.
     
  7. ds

    ds Well-Known Member

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    I have had the Rcbs comp die sets (.308 and 6.5x55) and now use Redding Comp dies - Neck type. The Redding shows less runout on the concentricty guage and I think is a better made product. When you unscrew the micrometer head out of the Rcbs comp seater the seater itself is held in alignment with a bubber "o" ring. Not to my mind the best of precision engineering practice. Wondered why the micrometer adjustments felt mushy and were less than repeatable.

    I think goodgrouper is giving good advice.

    David.
     
  8. Kenster-Boy

    Kenster-Boy Well-Known Member

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    GG,[ QUOTE ]
    Good brass is definetly important, but can still be oversized (work hardened over time) and have TOO MUCH grip with standard dies and that can be adjusted with the comp dies.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I was having problems with the neck shaving off a LITTLE bit of the copper jacket when I was seating the bullets. Could this be a problem like you have stated that the brass could have too much grip? Even after I started using the deburring tool on the inside of the neck. It helped a little bit but didn't solve the problem. It is not much but enough to hurt the accuracy down range, and one things for sure it isn't helping my accuracy.
     
  9. srhaggerty

    srhaggerty Well-Known Member

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    I am new to reloading. How do you measure your runout?
     
  10. ds

    ds Well-Known Member

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    srhaggerty,

    runout can be measured with a concentricty gauge. Several types are listed in the Sinclair catalog. Sinclairs own is good and NECO should be better. www.sinclairintl.com

    A cheaper way to see if you think runout looks bad or not is to roll your rounds over a flat piece of glass. You will notice if the ammo is wonky or not.

    As to how much run out is significant, I guess depends on the type of shooting you are doing, BR or hunting, type of bullet eg vld`s are probably a bit more sensitive to it as they like to be seated into the lands so giving them a straight start can help. For me .003" runout is fine. Also the cheaper dial indicator seems fine to me.

    Hope it helps,

    David.
     
  11. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Kraky1,

    I have to agree with Goodgrouper on his replies to you.

    There is no comparision between a standard FL sizing die and a properly set up, adjusted and maintained Comp Neck sizing die from Redding.

    Notice that I said "Properly set up, adjusted and maintained."

    This is critical to top performance. I suspect that most of the problems with bushing neck sizing dies are from S type dies and not the Comp die. The S die from Redding is nothing more then a standard neck sizing die that has been machined to accept an interchangable sizing bushing. This is great for controling neck tension but does not decrease neck run out in any way as the case body is not supported and held in alignment as the neck is sized.

    With a Comp sizer, the sliding sleeve positively holds the case in alignment with the bushing so neck run outs are extremely low.

    Now if you do not clean the die properly before using you will get higher run outs. The bushing chamber needs to be clean and dry, no oil, no brass chips, nothing. If there is anything in there you will see increased neck run outs.

    But when set up properly, they produce neck runs outs in the 0.001" or less range with extreme consistancy. With turned necks you will also get bullet run outs that are generally equal to this roughly 98% of the time.

    While you may be happy with 0.003" bullet run outs there are very few serious extreme range shooters that will allow anything over 0.0015" in run out for their serious shooting. I would also be curious to see what percentage of your ammo actually made true match quality specs, 0.0015" run out or less, I suspect less then 50% would meet the grade with Hornady dies.

    Now if your shooting to the 1/4 mile range, then yes this level of ammo can work. It still will not allow the rifle to perform up to its full portential if the rifle is a quality rifle but you will hit your mark most of the time.

    For shooting out to 800 yards you will start seeing problems for sure. At 1000 yards and beyond, good luck!!

    Consistancy is a result of perfection, in the ammo, the rifle, and the shooter. Your results will be limited by your weakest link in the system and if you think standard dies are "good enough", that for sure is a very week link in your system.

    The question was posed if these dies will take you to that next level of performance and the answer is YES. They would also take you to that next level my friend.

    Not flaming you at all, just letting you know that there is performance out there that you have not tapped into yet.

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  12. Centre Punch

    Centre Punch Well-Known Member

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    Hi,
    Goodgrouper hits the nail right on the head and i think it is everyones duty to load the best quality ammunition be it for hunting or target.
    I've said it once before and i will say it again, use the best dies, best components, benchrest case prep and you will end up with the finest ammunition, and for me, complete confidence in my handloads.
    If you dont possess the necessary skills or you cant be bothered, get one of your buddies who practices these processes to do it.
    If like me he enjoys it, he will be only to glad to do it for you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    I've gone off on a bit of a tangent here so getting back i use only Redding competition dies and apart from Wilson hand dies i think they are the best 7/8"x14 dies you can get. I have loaded many thousands of rounds in 222, 22-250, 243 and 300WSM,it gives great satisfaction to know that i have done this to best of my abillity,using top quality dies.

    Ian.
     
  13. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    I have redding comp dies and wilson seaters. Still prefer the wilson seaters for seating the most precisely.

    no need to incorporate the threads and press linkage when you can seat with a wilson.

    Not to mention a wilson seater costs about 30$ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    stainless micrometer seater for some rounds is a little over 70$ from brunos

    BTW -- you dont NEED an arbor press to use a wilcon seater /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    YMMV,
    JB
     
  14. srhaggerty

    srhaggerty Well-Known Member

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    Fifty,

    What is the proper maintanence and setup to fully minimize runout?