Colo Point Banking

Discussion in 'Elk Hunting' started by jimss, Apr 9, 2014.

  1. jimss

    jimss Member

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    I'm not sure if you are aware but the point banking issue has returned in Colorado. I was unaware of this until late in the 5 year plan process. If you enjoy hunting Colo on a regular basis you may want to get involved! This could dramatically make it tougher to draw tags in Colo in the coming years....especially tags that take only a few pref pts to draw. If you think point creep is bad now wait until this is re-introduced!

    I found out that the CBA is supporting this issue without any input or explanation to it's members. If you have a chance to contact the CBA and the CPW in regard to this issue please do so! There are some interesting posts on the Monstermuley website in the Colo forum. The number of years it takes to draw tags in Colo may have just taken a giant leap in the wrong direction...without you even knowing about it!
     
  2. 87predator

    87predator Well-Known Member

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    Please expand mote on this or where one can get more info on this.
     

  3. jimss

    jimss Member

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    Point banking in short is where applicants can use their pref pts to draw multiple tags rather than using them all for just 1 tag. If you have more pref pts than what it takes to draw a particular unit you will be allowed to keep the additional pref pts for another draw.

    In reality this allows applicants to use their pref pts for more than 1 tag....which in turn will drive the number of pref pts it takes to draw low pref pt units. If you've heard of "point creeping" you could actually call this "point leaping" in units that currently only take 0 to 10 pref pts to draw!

    Most of the toughest units in Colo to draw 2, 10, and 201 will hardly be effected because there are so few tags and so few applicants that apply for these units. The units that will be effected the most are the low to middle range units that currently are within most applicants grasp for drawing.

    Here's a website with the proportion of hunters at each pref pt category. http://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Hunting/BigGame/5YearSeasonStructure/PostDraw05_13PrefPtsbyRes.pdf

    Notice that 60 to 75% of applicants have 2 or less pref pts to draw. If point banking is available this would change dramatically! This is a HORRIBLE idea in Colorado!
     
  4. Marble

    Marble Well-Known Member

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    So currently I have 6 points in CO and the zone I hunt Elk in is 43, I haven't been getting a deer tag because I want to hunt one of those zones mentioned above. I've only been getting preference points. So now in theory, if I did get drawn for 43 (had I put in this year) I would only have one point taken away? It usually takes one point, sometimes none, to get drawn in zone 43.
     
  5. Timber338

    Timber338 Well-Known Member

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    Let me start by saying my below comments are only to promote a healthy discussion ... not an argument. And maybe this shows my lack of knowledge on preference points.

    With that said, my understanding to move over to a banking system is to actually PREVENT preference point creep. There are lots of guys who have 15 - 20+ preference points but still cannot draw hunts like 201 because of preference point creep. Too many people keep waiting for only the top 2 or 3 premier hunts, and there's just not enough to go around each year to support the number of people who want to hunt them. Now all those guys who've waited all these years are simply not gonna blow 20+ points on a 9 point hunt. If you let these guys start dividing their points up they'll "settle" for a few other hunts which will open up the hunts on the high end.

    I do agree that over the next 5 years (time duration is a guess) it will make the mid-range preference point hunts much harder (impossible) to get, but that will be short lived until the overall number of high-point holders exhaust their points. So as I understand it, the preference point banking system will be good in the long run for hunters as a whole, but the short term will suck.
     
  6. cohunter14

    cohunter14 Well-Known Member

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    Timber, that is my understanding as well. Someone who has 15 points saved up isn't going to decide to use them to hunt an area that takes 1 or 2 preference points to draw. It might make those mid-range units difficult to draw for a few years, but in the end I think it could be a good thing.

    Jimss, if 60 to 75% of applicants have 2 or less pref pts to draw, how would that change dramatically if point banking went into effect? Maybe I'm just missing something as well.
     
  7. jimss

    jimss Member

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    Here is a post that I put on another website. As I state below this is the most concerned I have ever been in regard to the difficulty of drawing tags and "point leaping" in the 30 years I've lived in Colo! Hopefully this explains my concern:

    If you think about it how many guys currently just apply for pref pts in Colo waiting for a top tier unit to draw? How many of those guys that have 10 to 18 pref pts have a chance of drawing a 2, 10, or 201 elk tag in their lifetime.....NONE OF THEM! How many of those guys with 10 to 18 pref pts will sooner or later realize they won't draw one of the top tier tags and would jump at the chance to burn their pref pts on several medium tier units....probably ALL OF THEM if they are smart! What will happen to the middle tier units once guys that once just applied for pref pts are now drawing 2 or maybe 3 middle tier units with all their pref pts. It's pretty easy to visualize that mid tier units will escillate.

    Once middle tier units "point leap" what will happen to the units below them? Obviously they will take more pref pts to draw. What will happen then? It doesn't take much to figure out that since 5 to 10 pref pt units will then take 8 to 15 pref pts to draw applicants will use pt banking to draw the low tier tags. I can guarantee there will be a domino affect that will spiral down to even the 0 pref pts units! The writing is pretty much on the wall what a point banking system will do in the long term in Colo! Once points "leap" with this system they definitely won't stabilize or ever return to where they are today....pretty much guaranteed! This is actually one of the scariest moments in almost 30 years I've lived in Colo for seeing a change in the draw system that will have horrible implications for everyone....and especially your kids that may want to hunt some day!
     
  8. cohunter14

    cohunter14 Well-Known Member

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    I still think the long term effects of this will bring all of the required preference points down, which would be the goal of the CPW by doing this. I would rather sacrifice some of the mid range units now so my kids will actually have an opportunity to draw one of the prized units someday, instead of never having a chance. If that list shrinks down to where the most preference points people have are 15 instead of 28, I think that will definitely help things out. Yes, some of the mid range units will be more difficult to draw, but in the end I could see it being worth it.
     
  9. cohunter14

    cohunter14 Well-Known Member

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    To put things in perspective on this, there are currently 34 hunt codes that required 10 or more preference points last year for residents. There are 19 that require 6-9 preference points and there are 32 codes that require 3-5 preference points. Imagine if you are someone with 10 points...what are you going to do? Maybe you apply for two of the 5 point units back to back and burn all your points. Or maybe you just keep waiting. Either way, if some of these mid range units go up for a few years, what's the big deal? I would rather have that happen and stop the point creep than the other way around. Truthfully, with the point creep, people are going to end up burning their points on these lower pref point units anyway, so if they get one extra tag out of it, I just don't see it being a big deal. No one is going to be blowing their 10 points on 2 or 3 point units.

    Again, to go back to what you said about our children growing up, I would much rather them eventually have a chance at one of the top units instead of saving up every year only to hunt one of these mid range units when they are 30.
     
  10. jimss

    jimss Member

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    Cohunter14, The one thing you mention that I disagree with is that things will settle down and point creep will slow or stop after a few years of point banking? If you think about it point banking will prompt guys that haven't been applying for units (just applying for pref pts) to change and start applying for units they can draw. You also forgot to mention that every point banker will likely use his pref pts for at least 2 tags...which means point bankers will displace those appicants that originally applied for tags 2 or 3 times! This in turn will drive up the number of pref pts it takes to draw tags from that year on....never slowing down point creep and never stabilizing! Point bankers displace those that originally applied for these tags 2 or even possibly 3 times!

    This will drive up the pref pts required to draw middle tier tags. I'm not exactly sure if you understood my last post....it will become a domino effect for all lessor pref pt units. Since more guys are applying and burning pref pts that originally only applied for pref pts there are a lot more applicants vying for tags. Once pref pts increase it will take more pref pts from that time on to draw those tags.

    Hopefully I explained things so you can understand! One thing I can pretty much guarantee is point creep will point leap and never return to the pref pt levels they are today!
     
  11. Timber338

    Timber338 Well-Known Member

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    It looks to me like we are more or less saying the same thing, but looking at it from different perspectives. I think we all agree that at least for some duration of time the middle range hunts will be harder to get.

    But the way I look at all of this, is that a banking system is more fair all around. It would be a shame if some of the guys who've banked for 20+ years had to use all those points on a hunt that required half those points but used up all their points. The banking system gives those guys something for all the years they saved points but never got to use them on a premier hunt, and then in turn, will open up those premier hunts down the road.

    Another way to look at it.... if you were saving up for the past 20 years for a brand new Ford F350 King Ranch Super Duty Diesel, lift kit, mud tires, leather, every bell and whistle , but every year they just got a little more expensive and out of your price range, would it be fare if you finally settled on a Ford F-150 but still had to pay $90,000???

    No matter how you slice this pie, there is always going to be more guys that want to hunt any of the good units than there are tags available. I listened in on a DOW town hall meeting, and everybody there, including hunters, were all for a banking system. This is the DOW's best attempt to help fix a very challenging situation, they really are trying their best here. It may not be ideal, but it certainly is more fair with banking.
     
  12. cohunter14

    cohunter14 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, I think we all agree that some of the mid tier hunts will go up, but I think we can also agree that something has to be done. If we continue on the same path, it will only get worse.

    The thing to remember is that it is still going to be based on a supply and demand setup. Maybe some folks will opt to hunt twice in a unit that requires 5 preference points while others will still hold out and wait for one of the top tier units. In the end, I would rather see the middle tier hunts require one or two more preference points and see the top tier stay steady or even come down a point or two than the other way around. But those mid tier hunts will definitely get to a level where people won't waste x amount of preference points to hunt there. What that level is? I don't know, but I would guess that those hunts will not creap up more than a point or two. Meanwhile, the units that most people hunt on an annual basis, those that require 0 or 1 point, will not be affected at all.

    At this point, I just don't see how the CPW has any other option.
     
  13. Marble

    Marble Well-Known Member

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    So in California we have a preference point system that has been in place about 10 years. Before it was a PP system, it was just a straight lottery. The tag quota for my zone at the time was 2300, it was weigh too much. They shrunk it to 850 or so in 1994, and it's still too much. After they shrunk the tag quota, I went from hunting the same area every year to not being able to hunt there for 15 years. It's not a "trophy" zone, but it does hold big mule deer, should you know where to look.

    After the point system was put into place, now I can hunt that zone every 2-4 years which is reasonable. We can put in as a group of 6 and all preference points are added up and averaged and then when the draw occurs, your group is assigned PP average for the group. Or you can put in solo.

    Also, depending on the zone and hunt, there is a general lottery. So 10-20% of the tags go to just random draws. My friend drew a hunt this past year for a Roosevelt Elk hunt. He killed a very very nice bull (which I called in for him), and it was his first bull. He had 1-2 PP and got drawn for a zone where MAX PP are needed.

    It's an odd system, but it seems to work.

    I'm in a little bit of a conundrum, I have 6 PP in CO, and the zone I hunt Elk in I need 0-1 PP depending on the year. It would be nice if every few years I could use just one of my points and draw a tag and then maybe 3-4 years later use another point, all the while still adding enough PP to get one of the premium tags.

    I see big bucks every year where I hunt in CO. Probably every other year I see a 190" buck that I could kill. It just would be nice to have a little bit more flexibility.
     
  14. Timber338

    Timber338 Well-Known Member

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    Good to hear that Cali has some type of system that seems to be working. I like that they reserve a portion of tags for a general lottery to give everybody at least some kind of a chance to draw a premium tag. I can see that being very positive for the guys that have no points, but I can also see the guys who save points not liking that at all.

    It will be very interesting to see how this banking system plays out in Colorado. I'm trying to stay optimistic, so I am just telling myself it's not going to effect the 0-1 preference point units. It will really suck if the 0 preference point unit I hunt in now turns into a several preference point unit. Only time will tell ....