Topgun 30-06
Well-Known Member
Thanks guys!!!
Case sorting???
- Thread starter Firearrow
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davewilson
Well-Known Member
weight sorting brass will give you brass that weighs the same. it has little to do with the same size cavity inside which is what people are looking for when weight sorting brass. i don't believe the inside cavity size has anything to do with accuracy either but it's a feel good so go ahead and do it if it makes you feel more accurate.
Differences in inside cavities give you different pressures, therefore different velocities, therefore vertical dispersion at long range. You say you don't "believe" the inside cavity has anything to do with accuracy... Well, I know it does, but only at long range.
gcamp54
Well-Known Member
BB,
When in the process do you weigh the cases? I was wondering about weighing before or after trimming, etc. if that is enough to affect the weight sorting? Thanks.
Gordon
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Before trimming.
Think about things this way.
The amount of brass in a case is the reason for its weight. If you put it through a die it comes out more or less the same dimension on the outside. So the weight must be on the inside. There are two places the extra weight can be- in the case head where it really does not matter much or in the sidewalls where it does matter. With a constant weight of powder the volume it is contained within affects muzzle velocity.
All I look for in the process is the weird and goofy case.
If you doubt that a case that produces a flyer one time will produce a flyer the second time try the same experiment I did and mark them and randomly fire them in a scored long range competition. When you drop three point on your score with one shot of a marked case you will become a believer.
Really good quality brass like Lapua is not likely to need sorting. Buying high quality brass is a good investment. Unfortunately RWS does not import raw brass into the United states anymore but you can buy their loaded ammunition on sale at Midway for same price as the raw brass used to cost. A sad result of the mass hysteria from 9/11.
Think about things this way.
The amount of brass in a case is the reason for its weight. If you put it through a die it comes out more or less the same dimension on the outside. So the weight must be on the inside. There are two places the extra weight can be- in the case head where it really does not matter much or in the sidewalls where it does matter. With a constant weight of powder the volume it is contained within affects muzzle velocity.
All I look for in the process is the weird and goofy case.
If you doubt that a case that produces a flyer one time will produce a flyer the second time try the same experiment I did and mark them and randomly fire them in a scored long range competition. When you drop three point on your score with one shot of a marked case you will become a believer.
Really good quality brass like Lapua is not likely to need sorting. Buying high quality brass is a good investment. Unfortunately RWS does not import raw brass into the United states anymore but you can buy their loaded ammunition on sale at Midway for same price as the raw brass used to cost. A sad result of the mass hysteria from 9/11.
Firearrow
Well-Known Member
First I want to thank you guys for helping the new-bee's out.
Second what is your guys take on Norma Brass. Lapua doesn't make 300 win mag, or at least not that I can find. I have Federal that I use now, and just got a batch of Winchester. I was going to see how my rifle like the Winchester, but just wanted to throw out the Norma for debate.
Second what is your guys take on Norma Brass. Lapua doesn't make 300 win mag, or at least not that I can find. I have Federal that I use now, and just got a batch of Winchester. I was going to see how my rifle like the Winchester, but just wanted to throw out the Norma for debate.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
+1
I have posted on this several times before and My experiences have verified that volume
does make a difference.
After sorting brass in 1 grain lots I normally find one size/weight shoots better than the others
(Although not by much) I always keep records on each load and case volume/weight so that
when I sort NEW brass I can use the same volume and with the same lot of powder my zero
does not change.
The best example of this is the difference between military 308 brass and commercial brass
The military brass it heaver and has less volume. The pressure is greater in the military
brass and if you use it you have to back off on the max powder charge used in the commercial
brass.
The controversy over how to weight/volume sort is just a difference in opinion on which is best.
the main thing is that it is done the same way each time.(If you change back and fourth your
data may be invalid).
Some like to use a liquid to volume sort and others like to weight sort. I find no advantage in
one over the other. Weight sorting seems to be the easiest and fastest with the same accuracy
so that is what "I" prefer. If you do a good job of case prep and sizing it is very accurate.
I world never tell anyone that doing 'anything' is a waste of time if it makes there loads more
consistant ,shot to shot.
Ammo is like a well made rifle. the more accurately it is made the more accurately it will shoot.
J E CUSTOM
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
You're wrong here. Capacity is ALL that matters, and it does not correlate well with brass weight(which does not matter at all). You also cannot do capacity checks on new brass or sized brass. It must be fully fireformed, and unsized(at consistent dimension).
If you had done capacity testing, you would certainly know this. It's the kind of understanding that get's real obvious, real quick..
Weighing brass is nothing but a shortcut without valid basis.
Then there are always the questions of when to weigh, given all the brass removed during preps. And some still believe that brass should be sized for dimensional consistency.
No,,No,, this all out of whack.
Topgun 30-06
Well-Known Member
From your responses on this thread I can now understand why you **** people off!!! it would seem from just reading this one thread as a newbie that you think your way is the only way. Who made you number one in the world in reloading information? Putting nice posts up doesn't seem to be your forte, LOL, and I'm saying that whether you are right or wrong in what you post!!!
I would like to ask if brass is the same outer dimension whether it is sized or unsized when you weigh it, wouldn't the difference in weights result in the inside of one being larger or smaller in volume than the others since it would be the thickness of the individual case that would make the weight vary. Please be gentle if you are the one to respond to my question, LOL! Thank you!
I would like to ask if brass is the same outer dimension whether it is sized or unsized when you weigh it, wouldn't the difference in weights result in the inside of one being larger or smaller in volume than the others since it would be the thickness of the individual case that would make the weight vary. Please be gentle if you are the one to respond to my question, LOL! Thank you!
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Most of these responses are unsupported by any scientific means. I weigh virgin brass for competition purposes only. Those are Lapua and Norma cases, and I find very little difference in the weight swings. But the next guy may weigh with water equivalent, and that is his preference.
Much of advanced reloading practices are based on what makes the shooter "feel good". It seems as though everyone in this sport has an opinion, and we are all entitled to that. When a guy can put into print his theory based on actual field experience, I give it serious consideration - but reserve the right to try it and make my own decisions. So no one needs to get their panties turned inside out for any of these issues.
The OP asked about weight sorting for hunting rifles, not competition guns. I think its a waste of time to weight sort hunting brass. If someone else wants to do that - go for it. I don't mind. If you disagree, show me the proof.
Much of advanced reloading practices are based on what makes the shooter "feel good". It seems as though everyone in this sport has an opinion, and we are all entitled to that. When a guy can put into print his theory based on actual field experience, I give it serious consideration - but reserve the right to try it and make my own decisions. So no one needs to get their panties turned inside out for any of these issues.
The OP asked about weight sorting for hunting rifles, not competition guns. I think its a waste of time to weight sort hunting brass. If someone else wants to do that - go for it. I don't mind. If you disagree, show me the proof.
Your statement seems contradictory to me, and let me tell you why. Weight sorting is weight sorting, weather you use it for competition or hunting, the object is to hit what you are aiming at!
Now, if you think it is necessary for competition, why wouldn't it be necessary for hunting? The object is the same isn't it? Or is it ok to have a less than perfect shot on an animal but not on paper? I'm confused!
Topgun 30-06
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the replies guys! I think I understand that he is saying that it's not going to make that much of a difference in a killing shot on game because you have a pretty good number of inches in the kill zone to deal with, whereas you guys are really getting down to the nitty gritty to get the best score you can in competitive shooting. If that's not what he means, maybe he will come back on again with another post. Anyway, thanks to both of you for the information!
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Well you can believe the guy who throws you another canned shortcut -because it's easier.
Or you can believe the guy who ascerts a truth, and who has the balls to throw BS flags, even if it makes him your favorite ***.
Which do you think is better for you? What you wanna hear? Or what you don't?
You can change the weight of a case without affecting capacity. Right? Brass weight can vary with deviations in the head/web. Primer pockets, extraction groove, flash hole, and rim thickness for example. Turning, trimming, and chamferring necks, can also contibute to a shift in wt/cap proportion.
You can change capacity without affecting weight. Right? Capacity can vary with any dimensional variance. You could have a lighter head combined with thicker case walls to reduce capacity, but show no weight difference. A dimple. Some cases might actually be and stay dimensionally different than others due to springback/hardness in different areas.
And yes they may or may not also correlate, consistently or not.
Therefore, it is not conservative to 'assume' your brass weight and capacity directly correlate, until measurements actually show this.
Actual measurements... Hhmmm, doesn't sound like a shortcut...
It isn't. Especially when it needs to be done on every case, every cartridge, every lot(that matters).
But can anybody here reason that capacity checks are inferior to weight sorting brass? That capacity checks on fully formed brass might mislead us, or result in inferior ammo?
And the big question; Why would a competitor make any assumptions here, or take shortcuts?
I don't know why they do, so consistently, I wouldn't.
Nor do I think that hunters should skip this, and other reloading steps, because they are 'just' hunting, and not competing..
I am confident that hunting accuracy is plenty challenging, and warrants every trick in the book.
Sorry to offend. Maybe I'm too frustrated with the subjects, too often, to be helpful anymore.
Or you can believe the guy who ascerts a truth, and who has the balls to throw BS flags, even if it makes him your favorite ***.
Which do you think is better for you? What you wanna hear? Or what you don't?
You can change the weight of a case without affecting capacity. Right? Brass weight can vary with deviations in the head/web. Primer pockets, extraction groove, flash hole, and rim thickness for example. Turning, trimming, and chamferring necks, can also contibute to a shift in wt/cap proportion.
You can change capacity without affecting weight. Right? Capacity can vary with any dimensional variance. You could have a lighter head combined with thicker case walls to reduce capacity, but show no weight difference. A dimple. Some cases might actually be and stay dimensionally different than others due to springback/hardness in different areas.
And yes they may or may not also correlate, consistently or not.
Therefore, it is not conservative to 'assume' your brass weight and capacity directly correlate, until measurements actually show this.
Actual measurements... Hhmmm, doesn't sound like a shortcut...
It isn't. Especially when it needs to be done on every case, every cartridge, every lot(that matters).
But can anybody here reason that capacity checks are inferior to weight sorting brass? That capacity checks on fully formed brass might mislead us, or result in inferior ammo?
And the big question; Why would a competitor make any assumptions here, or take shortcuts?
I don't know why they do, so consistently, I wouldn't.
Nor do I think that hunters should skip this, and other reloading steps, because they are 'just' hunting, and not competing..
I am confident that hunting accuracy is plenty challenging, and warrants every trick in the book.
Sorry to offend. Maybe I'm too frustrated with the subjects, too often, to be helpful anymore.
