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Can the stock trigger pull be reduced?
- Thread starter rc40099
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jon.henry755
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- Dec 16, 2010
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RC40099,
Although I'm not a gunsmith and not nearly knowledgeable enough on triggers to claim any type of expert status, it was my understanding from what I heard from many others and the manufacture that these triggers are not made to be modifiable in pull or travel. That's why most owners have been going the route of replacing them with other triggers.
I installed a Timney single stage trigger before even shooting my TAC15i and I love the performance, but at the same time one of our other members has done an excellent comparison study of the entire field of after market trigger manufactures for AR15 Triggers, so I would see if you can get his input because he can let you know everybody in the game and what their ratings and prices are.
He goes by the handle of Super 91 and he currently has a new TAC15i on order, so he's in the market for a new trigger. He was one of the original TAC15 owners, so he has a massive amount of experience with these crossbows.
Regards,
Jon
Although I'm not a gunsmith and not nearly knowledgeable enough on triggers to claim any type of expert status, it was my understanding from what I heard from many others and the manufacture that these triggers are not made to be modifiable in pull or travel. That's why most owners have been going the route of replacing them with other triggers.
I installed a Timney single stage trigger before even shooting my TAC15i and I love the performance, but at the same time one of our other members has done an excellent comparison study of the entire field of after market trigger manufactures for AR15 Triggers, so I would see if you can get his input because he can let you know everybody in the game and what their ratings and prices are.
He goes by the handle of Super 91 and he currently has a new TAC15i on order, so he's in the market for a new trigger. He was one of the original TAC15 owners, so he has a massive amount of experience with these crossbows.
Regards,
Jon
jon.henry755
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2010
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- 391
Hi RC40099,
Super 91 has already been contacted on your behalf, so please be patient. He has the link to this thread and I'm sure he'll respond as soon as he has the bandwidth to get back to you.
Len Backus who is the owner of this site is a distributor for Timney Triggers. He sells them at the same price Timney does, so he can supply a Timney, if that's what you decide on.
For anything else, I would suggest you wait for Super 91's analysis, since it's extremely well written and could save you hours of searching around and possibly making a less than perfect choice.
You're only going to do a trigger once, so make sure it's everything you expect and more. I know you'd like to get up and running as fast as you can, but doing it right is far more important than doing it fast.
Regards,
Jon
Super 91 has already been contacted on your behalf, so please be patient. He has the link to this thread and I'm sure he'll respond as soon as he has the bandwidth to get back to you.
Len Backus who is the owner of this site is a distributor for Timney Triggers. He sells them at the same price Timney does, so he can supply a Timney, if that's what you decide on.
For anything else, I would suggest you wait for Super 91's analysis, since it's extremely well written and could save you hours of searching around and possibly making a less than perfect choice.
You're only going to do a trigger once, so make sure it's everything you expect and more. I know you'd like to get up and running as fast as you can, but doing it right is far more important than doing it fast.
Regards,
Jon
Super 91
Well-Known Member
Hey Jon and RC,
Here is a write up I came across which has some really great info on a wide variety of triggers, and their differences and make up. It's a long read, but well worth it. After contacting many of the companies listed in the article, I have decided on the Timney for myself as well. I have used their triggers on many other weapons I own, and they have never let me down and they have superb customer service to boot.
The trigger PSE ships with their TAC-15i is completely non-adjustable due to the fact we have lawyers and sue happy people on this planet. They put a "safe" trigger in but if you want any accuracy at all, toss the factory trigger and get the Timney from Les here on this web-site. He has a great price and these triggers are mildly adjustable, extremely repeatable, and very crisp. Installation is a breeze and I suggest you take a look at Jon's install of his trigger as he has covered that very well.
Let us know how it goes and which trigger you go with and how it does for you.
Trigger/Fire Control Groups tested and evaluated - the "BEST" trigger for you??? - Page 1 - AR15.COM
Here is a write up I came across which has some really great info on a wide variety of triggers, and their differences and make up. It's a long read, but well worth it. After contacting many of the companies listed in the article, I have decided on the Timney for myself as well. I have used their triggers on many other weapons I own, and they have never let me down and they have superb customer service to boot.
The trigger PSE ships with their TAC-15i is completely non-adjustable due to the fact we have lawyers and sue happy people on this planet. They put a "safe" trigger in but if you want any accuracy at all, toss the factory trigger and get the Timney from Les here on this web-site. He has a great price and these triggers are mildly adjustable, extremely repeatable, and very crisp. Installation is a breeze and I suggest you take a look at Jon's install of his trigger as he has covered that very well.
Let us know how it goes and which trigger you go with and how it does for you.
Trigger/Fire Control Groups tested and evaluated - the "BEST" trigger for you??? - Page 1 - AR15.COM
WildWillie
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2011
- Messages
- 57
Has anyone used the Geissele triggers in the Tac 15i ? I'm used to two stage triggers from HP matches and looking for something to update my Tac 15. I was looking at the Hi-speed DMR Geissele which is adjustable from 3 to 5.1 lbs.
WildWillie
WildWillie
jon.henry755
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2010
- Messages
- 391
Hi WildWillie,
Not that I'm aware of, but Len Backus who is the host and owner of this website uses a Jewel two stage on his TAC15i. Len was the first person I know of who altered his trigger on his TAC15i. He had to have some minor gunsmithing done in order to have the job done correctly, but the Jewel Two Stage Triggers can be set very light at 1.5 lbs. up to about 5 lbs.
If yo ask Len about his experience or knowledge he can probably provide some insight as to weather any gunsmithing may be involved.
One of the nice benefits of the Timney Triggers is that absolutely no gunsmithing is needed and they are very simple to install, so it's a definite do-it-yourself job.
Super 91 had ordered a new TAC15i and had decided to go with a Timney Trigger on his new xbow. He's about to go through the installation process in the next two weeks, so he can tell you fist hand just how simple it is. I did mine about 4 months ago and then wrote the step by steps as a result of how simple the process was.
I'm not advocating Timney Triggers, just stating that they are very simple and very solid. I firmly believe that if you have another trigger type that you prefer and want to try on your xbow, it could be well worth having a gunsmith perform the installation. Having your trigger perform to your individual feel is very important to your shooting accuracy and comfort.
Regards,
Jon
Not that I'm aware of, but Len Backus who is the host and owner of this website uses a Jewel two stage on his TAC15i. Len was the first person I know of who altered his trigger on his TAC15i. He had to have some minor gunsmithing done in order to have the job done correctly, but the Jewel Two Stage Triggers can be set very light at 1.5 lbs. up to about 5 lbs.
If yo ask Len about his experience or knowledge he can probably provide some insight as to weather any gunsmithing may be involved.
One of the nice benefits of the Timney Triggers is that absolutely no gunsmithing is needed and they are very simple to install, so it's a definite do-it-yourself job.
Super 91 had ordered a new TAC15i and had decided to go with a Timney Trigger on his new xbow. He's about to go through the installation process in the next two weeks, so he can tell you fist hand just how simple it is. I did mine about 4 months ago and then wrote the step by steps as a result of how simple the process was.
I'm not advocating Timney Triggers, just stating that they are very simple and very solid. I firmly believe that if you have another trigger type that you prefer and want to try on your xbow, it could be well worth having a gunsmith perform the installation. Having your trigger perform to your individual feel is very important to your shooting accuracy and comfort.
Regards,
Jon
WildWillie
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2011
- Messages
- 57
Thanks for the reply.
One of the concerns I had using the Geissele trigger was how much you had to tinker with it to get a good fit. I'm not a gunsmith, but have used a file or two in my day.
I'll probably go with the Timney as well (I have one in a sporterized 1903) since they are so easy to install. I have not shot in a High Power match in years (Got kids now that take up all my time) so I am not worried about switching back and forth.
One of the concerns I had using the Geissele trigger was how much you had to tinker with it to get a good fit. I'm not a gunsmith, but have used a file or two in my day.
I'll probably go with the Timney as well (I have one in a sporterized 1903) since they are so easy to install. I have not shot in a High Power match in years (Got kids now that take up all my time) so I am not worried about switching back and forth.
Super 91
Well-Known Member
I have a Les Baer AR-15 that I used the lower on my existing TAC-15 and it has a Jewel 2 stage and it is set at 1 pound 15 ounces. I really like that but I also really like my Timney triggers I have installed in a number of my other rifles.
I opted for the single stage Timney because you order it to suit your preferences. It is also a quality drop in that will fit the TAC-15i without any mods. So for me it was a easy choice. I should have my TAC-15i in here in the next week or so and will be doing a more extensive write-up on it at that time.
Jon here has already done a fine job on his install instructions. Take a look at his post on the subject.
I opted for the single stage Timney because you order it to suit your preferences. It is also a quality drop in that will fit the TAC-15i without any mods. So for me it was a easy choice. I should have my TAC-15i in here in the next week or so and will be doing a more extensive write-up on it at that time.
Jon here has already done a fine job on his install instructions. Take a look at his post on the subject.
jon.henry755
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2010
- Messages
- 391
Which ever trigger you decide to go with, it will be a night and day difference over the stock trigger.
Should you decide to go with one of the Timney Triggers, if you go to page two of this forum " PSE TAC 15/15i Crossbow Hunting" you'll find the article that I produced which outlines the simple step by step instructions for the installation. More importantly, it provides a website link to Timney that is a link to their video of performing the installation on a standard AR15 rifle. Watching the video is very helpful before or during the installation process. My document will outline each of the differences between a standard AR15 and the TAC15i, so you won't have any surprises.
My last important tip is to make sure you order the trigger with the correct "Pin Size". All AR15's including the PSE TAC15i use the "small" Pins. The only exception to this rule is the Colt AR15, so unless you have certain versions of the Colt, you will need the Small Pin Trigger. Timney has sold enough of their triggers for this crossbow that they can easily tell yo which pin size you would need in the event you forget.
Once again, Len Backus is a distributor for Timney, so you won't get it any cheaper going direct than through him, but Len offers only the Timney regular trigger. There is also a skeletonized version that I use, which is about $50 more than the standard. It doesn't do anything the regular trigger doesn't do, but it looks a little better. I guess there's always a price for vanity, so I usually recommend to most people to save the $50 and get yourself a better fletching jig or some additional arrows.
When performing the trigger swap out, I would also strongly recommend doing some silencing work on your unit. As long as you have the upper and lower sections separated and open, it's the perfect time to quiet your crossbow for hunting. Each time you pull the trigger, the hammer strikes the hammer block pin which is a steel pin that goes through the frame of the TAC15i. This is responsible for over 75% of the noise produced from these crossbows.
By padding the hammer block pin, you immediately remove most of the noise and make these crossbows very quiet. Remember, this is not a vertical bow, it's a crossbow, so don't think you will silence it down equal to a regular bow. That's not going to happen, but you can get it to a very quiet level without to much difficulty.
I have a separate article on how to best quiet these units down and Super 91 and I are still experimenting with the use of some different materials on the hammer block pin. The other materials are not for additional silencing as much as for durability from the constant hammer strikes. One of us will publish some updates on this well before this years hunting seasons begin.
Regards,
Jon
Should you decide to go with one of the Timney Triggers, if you go to page two of this forum " PSE TAC 15/15i Crossbow Hunting" you'll find the article that I produced which outlines the simple step by step instructions for the installation. More importantly, it provides a website link to Timney that is a link to their video of performing the installation on a standard AR15 rifle. Watching the video is very helpful before or during the installation process. My document will outline each of the differences between a standard AR15 and the TAC15i, so you won't have any surprises.
My last important tip is to make sure you order the trigger with the correct "Pin Size". All AR15's including the PSE TAC15i use the "small" Pins. The only exception to this rule is the Colt AR15, so unless you have certain versions of the Colt, you will need the Small Pin Trigger. Timney has sold enough of their triggers for this crossbow that they can easily tell yo which pin size you would need in the event you forget.
Once again, Len Backus is a distributor for Timney, so you won't get it any cheaper going direct than through him, but Len offers only the Timney regular trigger. There is also a skeletonized version that I use, which is about $50 more than the standard. It doesn't do anything the regular trigger doesn't do, but it looks a little better. I guess there's always a price for vanity, so I usually recommend to most people to save the $50 and get yourself a better fletching jig or some additional arrows.
When performing the trigger swap out, I would also strongly recommend doing some silencing work on your unit. As long as you have the upper and lower sections separated and open, it's the perfect time to quiet your crossbow for hunting. Each time you pull the trigger, the hammer strikes the hammer block pin which is a steel pin that goes through the frame of the TAC15i. This is responsible for over 75% of the noise produced from these crossbows.
By padding the hammer block pin, you immediately remove most of the noise and make these crossbows very quiet. Remember, this is not a vertical bow, it's a crossbow, so don't think you will silence it down equal to a regular bow. That's not going to happen, but you can get it to a very quiet level without to much difficulty.
I have a separate article on how to best quiet these units down and Super 91 and I are still experimenting with the use of some different materials on the hammer block pin. The other materials are not for additional silencing as much as for durability from the constant hammer strikes. One of us will publish some updates on this well before this years hunting seasons begin.
Regards,
Jon
Very, very Interesting...Each time you pull the trigger, the hammer strikes the hammer block pin which is a steel pin that goes through the frame of the TAC15i. This is responsible for over 75% of the noise produced from these crossbows.
By padding the hammer block pin, you immediately remove most of the noise and make these crossbows very quiet.
Sometime back I looked into the issue of the noise made by the TAC-15.
What I found was there was two different noises with different associated frequencies. (Yeah, I am nutz enough I looked at the noises with a spectrum analysis program.) What I found was the opposite, that the hammer wasn't causing the most noise.
I did this by firing the TAC-15 without dropping the hammer, but by using fishing line to force the release and measuring the noise. Then measured the noise from dropping the hammer on an un-cocked bow.
Anyway, I still would be interested in how you managed to quiet the hammer drop and what material you used that stands up to what I think is a hammer blow with far too much energy.
To me a very light-weight hammer would be just as effective, would actually hit the string release quicker, and take less dampening to stop, thus quiet.
jon.henry755
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2010
- Messages
- 391
Hi OkieBowie,
Please keep in mind that a normal TAC15 does not have the Hammer Block Pin across the frame, above the trigger assembly. That is one of the differences between the TAC15i and the TAC15. An AR15 is completely open above the trigger assembly, so I'm not sure what the hammer hits when the trigger is pulled, because I don't have one, so I can't examine that function.
Keep in mind that the TAC15i is a suedo AR15 Frame. It can't be converted to ever support an AR15 Upper Unit, since there's no place to insert a clip, the frame is slightly different and even the Buttstock unit is not the same. This becomes more evident when you go to replace the Buttstock Tube and remove the lock ring and locking ring nut. On most AR15's these pieces require heating due to the "Lock Tight" thread cement used at the factory during assembly. PSE uses no cement at all, so these pieces remove with very little pressure and normal channel locks do the job easily.
Also on the AR15's I believe you have some type of a seal or gasket between the upper and lower units that can allow for some movement and noise. The TAC15i uses 6 set screws (3 on each side of the frame to secure the upper and lower units. There are no seals and there is absolutely no slack, movement or noise from this area of the crossbow.
The steel frame pin that I originally mentioned on the TAC15i is a uni-directional pin. It can only be removed using a punch and banging the pin out from the side the safety switch is on and tapping it out through the other side. It must be reinserted the opposite way.
Beside this major noise producer, using a good set of Crossbow Limb Savers or Bow Jacks Limb Savers or similar product made for split limb crossbows should take care of any sounds or vibrations coming from the limbs. A set of string leeches and a bolt dampener should complete the silencing components needed.
I would be very interested in anybody that can come up with any additional elements on the TAC15i they can identify that might be producing any noise?
I'm not inferring that there aren't any, I'm stating that these are the ones that I new about when I was working on mine and it is 85 to 90 per cent quieter than when I started. I'd love to find a way to remove the remainder of sound produced.
Jon
Please keep in mind that a normal TAC15 does not have the Hammer Block Pin across the frame, above the trigger assembly. That is one of the differences between the TAC15i and the TAC15. An AR15 is completely open above the trigger assembly, so I'm not sure what the hammer hits when the trigger is pulled, because I don't have one, so I can't examine that function.
Keep in mind that the TAC15i is a suedo AR15 Frame. It can't be converted to ever support an AR15 Upper Unit, since there's no place to insert a clip, the frame is slightly different and even the Buttstock unit is not the same. This becomes more evident when you go to replace the Buttstock Tube and remove the lock ring and locking ring nut. On most AR15's these pieces require heating due to the "Lock Tight" thread cement used at the factory during assembly. PSE uses no cement at all, so these pieces remove with very little pressure and normal channel locks do the job easily.
Also on the AR15's I believe you have some type of a seal or gasket between the upper and lower units that can allow for some movement and noise. The TAC15i uses 6 set screws (3 on each side of the frame to secure the upper and lower units. There are no seals and there is absolutely no slack, movement or noise from this area of the crossbow.
The steel frame pin that I originally mentioned on the TAC15i is a uni-directional pin. It can only be removed using a punch and banging the pin out from the side the safety switch is on and tapping it out through the other side. It must be reinserted the opposite way.
Beside this major noise producer, using a good set of Crossbow Limb Savers or Bow Jacks Limb Savers or similar product made for split limb crossbows should take care of any sounds or vibrations coming from the limbs. A set of string leeches and a bolt dampener should complete the silencing components needed.
I would be very interested in anybody that can come up with any additional elements on the TAC15i they can identify that might be producing any noise?
I'm not inferring that there aren't any, I'm stating that these are the ones that I new about when I was working on mine and it is 85 to 90 per cent quieter than when I started. I'd love to find a way to remove the remainder of sound produced.
Jon
