Sounds like you have a great combo! Try shooting some wet phone books at 50 and 500 yards. It is not the same as game but will give you some ideas as to its potential. Don't forget coyotes either. The post mortem exam can teach you a lot. If this is a no go, try the 178 A-MAX. They will expand.
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Bullet Worthy of a Once-in-a -Lifetime Trophy?
- Thread starter Rymart
- Start date
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300win
Well-Known Member
One thing no one has brought up is why this 308 is so picky. For the most part the 308 will shoot any quality bullet under an inch. A 10 or 12twist will shoot about any bullet you want. It sounds like you tried quite a few bullets. If you are getting good groups from smk's you can rule out technique or something mechanical such as a harsh trigger. It is almost painful not to get good all around accuracy from a 308. If it was my hunt, I would go with the 175 smk just for the higher velocity and better ballistic curve. Try to shoot them at 2700fps or a little faster and you will have a great long range load. Put the bullet where it belongs and game will drop. Pick your shots, if a good buck is standing in a large clearing at 800 yards let one fly.In a case like this you will poke a hole through the vitals, the deer will run a couple hundred yards and lay down. Now if that same buck was standing on the edge of a cornfield at dusk, the smk would not be the bullet of choice. Now that buck may be dead within 30 seconds of being hit but how far and which way did he go in this track infested cornfield with no snow? That is real world horn hunting not a tv show. A bullet is just a tool and no tool can fix everything. If there is a bullet that works great at all ranges on all game I hope some one will tell me about it. But I probaly could not afford it!
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'm not trying to start up the SMK for hunting debate again, but I do need some help here.
I have been planning to use my Tikka Master Sporter in 308 for deer and antelope hunting this year. It absolutely loves the 190 gr. SMK's (sub 0.25 moa) and likes the 175 gr. SMK's (usually sub 0.50 moa). I've tried to work up a "respectable" hunting load with this rifle, using the 165 gr SST's and 165 gr SGK's, neither of these shot nearly as well as the SMK's (about MOA, but opened up past 400 yards).
SNIP
[/ QUOTE ]
IMO, you have answered your own question!
Either you can shoot past 400 with 190 SMK OR you limit your maximum shot even if a world record deer shows up!
Any time you are worried about your projectile, arrow, rock, or bullet then you better be sure of your target. Hit bone no larger than a rib on the way in and try for a large bone on the exit side. Not always possible, but very often is. Yup, that means no head or tail on shots, but if you want those then you better be shooting a bonded or monolithic bullet anyway!
There is one more option that you may not have considered. IF, I wrote IF the POI is within a reasonable distance at 200-300 yards then take both bullets. Anything closer than 300 yards may require a snap decision and a quick shot, so use your bonded bullet here and they are in the rifle all of the time. Anything much longer and you are going to be setting up with a range finder, bi-pod rear rest, etc, anyway so these won't be quick shots. At the same time slip a 190 SMK round into the chamber as your Ace in the hole! You will feel 100% confident when the trigger breaks and that is a huge part of the game, IMO /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
edge.
Ok, I'm not trying to start up the SMK for hunting debate again, but I do need some help here.
I have been planning to use my Tikka Master Sporter in 308 for deer and antelope hunting this year. It absolutely loves the 190 gr. SMK's (sub 0.25 moa) and likes the 175 gr. SMK's (usually sub 0.50 moa). I've tried to work up a "respectable" hunting load with this rifle, using the 165 gr SST's and 165 gr SGK's, neither of these shot nearly as well as the SMK's (about MOA, but opened up past 400 yards).
SNIP
[/ QUOTE ]
IMO, you have answered your own question!
Either you can shoot past 400 with 190 SMK OR you limit your maximum shot even if a world record deer shows up!
Any time you are worried about your projectile, arrow, rock, or bullet then you better be sure of your target. Hit bone no larger than a rib on the way in and try for a large bone on the exit side. Not always possible, but very often is. Yup, that means no head or tail on shots, but if you want those then you better be shooting a bonded or monolithic bullet anyway!
There is one more option that you may not have considered. IF, I wrote IF the POI is within a reasonable distance at 200-300 yards then take both bullets. Anything closer than 300 yards may require a snap decision and a quick shot, so use your bonded bullet here and they are in the rifle all of the time. Anything much longer and you are going to be setting up with a range finder, bi-pod rear rest, etc, anyway so these won't be quick shots. At the same time slip a 190 SMK round into the chamber as your Ace in the hole! You will feel 100% confident when the trigger breaks and that is a huge part of the game, IMO /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
edge.
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
YOu just cant say that they all pencil through, and I cant say that they will all open nicely and form a perfect mushroom, nothing happens the same 100% if the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
My point exactly!
They are just toooooo inconcistent.
YOu just cant say that they all pencil through, and I cant say that they will all open nicely and form a perfect mushroom, nothing happens the same 100% if the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
My point exactly!
They are just toooooo inconcistent.
lerch
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
I agree but i havent seen a bullet yet preform 100% consistant all of the time. I ve seen BT's fly straight through with out opening up and I ve seen them stop on the shoulder blade.
if we ever find one that does the same thing everytime i guarantee you i will be shootin them. From what I have seen i really like the trophy bonded bear claw bullets, to bad they are flat base
take it easy
steve
if we ever find one that does the same thing everytime i guarantee you i will be shootin them. From what I have seen i really like the trophy bonded bear claw bullets, to bad they are flat base
take it easy
steve
Boy, this is some good stuff! So many directions that I can go. Here is a what I think I have learned so far:
- The 190 SMK should work if the shot is placed well.
- 'Placed well' seems to mean into a shoulder, preferrably the off-side shoulder, although there doesn't seem to be a consensus on this.
- If I bump the velocity of the 190 SMK up I'd probably be better off (no pressure signs yet, so I might try this).
- Or I could try IMR4064 for more velocity. OK I'm already moving this direction since I loaded up some loads with the IMR4064 a while back, but haven't had time to try them. I expect the accuracy will be there, but in my experience the IMR4064 has been overly temperature sensitive, which is fine for target shooting. (Already tried Varget, rifle doesn't seem to like it).
- All things considered the 190 SMK/308 combination appears to be borderline.
- There may be some benefit to trimming the metplate on the SMK's
- The 175 SMK's may open up a little better than the 190's.
- I would be better off with a magnum rifle for the longer shots...Hmmm, maybe I should take the 338 Lapua. Actually, until the McMillan A-5 comes in and the rifle gets 'GA Precisioned' and braked, I don't think it will be up to the task.
- I could pack the rifle with a magazine of 'less accurate' hunting loads in it for potential shots under 300 yards and swap to the 190's for a potential longer shot, but would need to confirm zero's for this.
- It is very important that I am confident with whatever load/bullet that I shoot and, overall, shot placement is more important than bullet construction (but both matter).
- Using a bipod is more practical under field conditions than packing sand bags and a rest, especially if I could shoot half as good as Shawn.
- 1000 yards is 'pushing' it for any bullet combination with the 308.
- The Nosler Accubond seems to be the most recommended bullet for my circumstances. Given this, I ordered some last night and will try to work up a load that I am 'comfortable' with before the season (IF I have time and IF they shoot well).
Some people have recommended that I try this-or-that and work up a load, which is helpful and appreciated, and at some point I will likely take all the advice. For some reason, I'm just not comfortable loading up some rounds, shooting a ladder test, picking the high velocity node and going with it (my impression of typical load work up). For me to be comfortable enough with a load to hunt with it, I need to do all that and then possibly try some different seating depths and neck tensions to 'perfect' the load. Then I test and re-test the load under varying conditions to ensure that it is consistent from day to day and week to week. Sometimes I make some adjustments. During this time I like to document where the CCB shots and the cold bore shots hit at different ranges and temperatures and compare these to the 'follow-up' shots. I like to verify my drop charts under field conditions, all the way out to where I may actually take a shot (including up-and-downhill angled shots), and including taking enough shots at distance to get a 'feel' for making accurate first shot wind calls. Although I carry a 'cheat sheet', I also like to have my drop tables memorized out to 600 yards for the bullet I'm using, this can help if I need to make a slightly hurried shot. I'm sure all this sounds somewhat obsessive, but that is what it takes for me to feel 'comfortable' with a load, and that takes time.
As far as my rifle being picky, I never thought of it that way, but I guess it could be. I've tried 3 different powders with it and it liked two of them (RE15 and IMR4064). I've tried 6 different bullets with it and it liked 3 of them (168,175,190 smk's).
Did I miss anything? Thanks again for all the great advice. Also, keep it coming, I'm not trying to close out this post just yet.
- The 190 SMK should work if the shot is placed well.
- 'Placed well' seems to mean into a shoulder, preferrably the off-side shoulder, although there doesn't seem to be a consensus on this.
- If I bump the velocity of the 190 SMK up I'd probably be better off (no pressure signs yet, so I might try this).
- Or I could try IMR4064 for more velocity. OK I'm already moving this direction since I loaded up some loads with the IMR4064 a while back, but haven't had time to try them. I expect the accuracy will be there, but in my experience the IMR4064 has been overly temperature sensitive, which is fine for target shooting. (Already tried Varget, rifle doesn't seem to like it).
- All things considered the 190 SMK/308 combination appears to be borderline.
- There may be some benefit to trimming the metplate on the SMK's
- The 175 SMK's may open up a little better than the 190's.
- I would be better off with a magnum rifle for the longer shots...Hmmm, maybe I should take the 338 Lapua. Actually, until the McMillan A-5 comes in and the rifle gets 'GA Precisioned' and braked, I don't think it will be up to the task.
- I could pack the rifle with a magazine of 'less accurate' hunting loads in it for potential shots under 300 yards and swap to the 190's for a potential longer shot, but would need to confirm zero's for this.
- It is very important that I am confident with whatever load/bullet that I shoot and, overall, shot placement is more important than bullet construction (but both matter).
- Using a bipod is more practical under field conditions than packing sand bags and a rest, especially if I could shoot half as good as Shawn.
- 1000 yards is 'pushing' it for any bullet combination with the 308.
- The Nosler Accubond seems to be the most recommended bullet for my circumstances. Given this, I ordered some last night and will try to work up a load that I am 'comfortable' with before the season (IF I have time and IF they shoot well).
Some people have recommended that I try this-or-that and work up a load, which is helpful and appreciated, and at some point I will likely take all the advice. For some reason, I'm just not comfortable loading up some rounds, shooting a ladder test, picking the high velocity node and going with it (my impression of typical load work up). For me to be comfortable enough with a load to hunt with it, I need to do all that and then possibly try some different seating depths and neck tensions to 'perfect' the load. Then I test and re-test the load under varying conditions to ensure that it is consistent from day to day and week to week. Sometimes I make some adjustments. During this time I like to document where the CCB shots and the cold bore shots hit at different ranges and temperatures and compare these to the 'follow-up' shots. I like to verify my drop charts under field conditions, all the way out to where I may actually take a shot (including up-and-downhill angled shots), and including taking enough shots at distance to get a 'feel' for making accurate first shot wind calls. Although I carry a 'cheat sheet', I also like to have my drop tables memorized out to 600 yards for the bullet I'm using, this can help if I need to make a slightly hurried shot. I'm sure all this sounds somewhat obsessive, but that is what it takes for me to feel 'comfortable' with a load, and that takes time.
As far as my rifle being picky, I never thought of it that way, but I guess it could be. I've tried 3 different powders with it and it liked two of them (RE15 and IMR4064). I've tried 6 different bullets with it and it liked 3 of them (168,175,190 smk's).
Did I miss anything? Thanks again for all the great advice. Also, keep it coming, I'm not trying to close out this post just yet.
300win
Well-Known Member
If you spend all that time becoming familiar with your chosen load just go hunting and GETRDONE! Because having confidence and being well practiced is what makes it happen. Lerch, I believe our boys in the sand are shooting the 175smk these days.They retired the 172's a while back in favor of the sierra. The 77gr smk are being shot from the 5.56. The longest shot ever made with the 308 was made by one of our counter snipers in Iraq. Not positive but I think the range was 1230 yards. The longest shot ever made in combat(by the 308). Great job! If I can find the article I will post it.
Roll-Yur-Own
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 795
The military may shoot the 308 at that distance, but deer are harder to kill. And, wounding & tracking are thing to consider when hunting deer.
Fishry, good to here you bought some AB's. I hope you get good groups with them. I was reading a post on another site where a guy was gearing up for a long shot and ended up shooting a nice animal at 40 yards. But like the Boy Scouts say "Be Prepared".
....When will your 338 lapua be ready? That would be the ticket! 300 SMK or 225 AB.
Fishry, good to here you bought some AB's. I hope you get good groups with them. I was reading a post on another site where a guy was gearing up for a long shot and ended up shooting a nice animal at 40 yards. But like the Boy Scouts say "Be Prepared".
....When will your 338 lapua be ready? That would be the ticket! 300 SMK or 225 AB.
lerch
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
That makes sense about the 175's, i thought I had read somewhere that the werent dumping popper targets past 1k or some range similar to that and the 175's would get the job done.
I agree with you that practice and confidence with the gun and load are the best things you can bring into the field.
the SMK debate will never die, but usually hidden in all of the arguing some good info is handed out.
I agree with you that practice and confidence with the gun and load are the best things you can bring into the field.
the SMK debate will never die, but usually hidden in all of the arguing some good info is handed out.
Roll-Yur-Own
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 795
Lerch, I don't think it a SMK argument. If he if was shooting his 338 lapua with a 300 SMK it would be totally different story.
lerch
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
HA HA HA, I will be testing that theory this fall, of course my 300gr SMK will be going near 3500fps so the poor SOB wont know what hit em'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dont think the combo is the best for the application but if it shoots and he feels confident in it I think he can get the job done and hopefully give us all a good write up about it. personnally i would like to see everybody shooting 300RUM's with 180gr Accubonds, but those would be some loud woods!!!
take it easy
steve
I dont think the combo is the best for the application but if it shoots and he feels confident in it I think he can get the job done and hopefully give us all a good write up about it. personnally i would like to see everybody shooting 300RUM's with 180gr Accubonds, but those would be some loud woods!!!
take it easy
steve
Roll-Yur-Own
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 795
I really like the Accubonds too. High BC, performs well close or far, and shoots great in most guns. Whats not to like?
I wish nosler made a 338 AB in 275 or 300 grain. I think the MK would have some competition.
I think the SMK's for hunting debate has evolved. It's no longer a "they work" or "they don't work" debate. At least is shouldn't be anymore, but there are still those trolls that like to get on the soapbox.
The discussions should now be on alternatives. I have been on the side of the MK guys and still am. They do work. But, it wasn't long ago when we didn't have Accubonds, Wildcats, or even barnes TSX. We had ballistic tips that were accurate but also had performance problems and Barnes that were hard to group in most guns and guys swore at them instead of about them. Now, barnes seem to get good reviews as well. Although I never tried them....yet.
Now lets take the accubond with a BC of .588 in a 200 grain 30 cal bullet. If I'm shooting a 300 RUM and I can get this bullet to shoot well out to 700+ yards, I would have to consider this bullet as an alternative to a 240 SMK. A few years ago, what choice did I have?
By the way, the BC of the 200 grain SMK is .565 vs. .588 for the 200 AB. I would love to see a 240 accubond to see if the BC would rival the SMK there too.
I wish nosler made a 338 AB in 275 or 300 grain. I think the MK would have some competition.
I think the SMK's for hunting debate has evolved. It's no longer a "they work" or "they don't work" debate. At least is shouldn't be anymore, but there are still those trolls that like to get on the soapbox.
The discussions should now be on alternatives. I have been on the side of the MK guys and still am. They do work. But, it wasn't long ago when we didn't have Accubonds, Wildcats, or even barnes TSX. We had ballistic tips that were accurate but also had performance problems and Barnes that were hard to group in most guns and guys swore at them instead of about them. Now, barnes seem to get good reviews as well. Although I never tried them....yet.
Now lets take the accubond with a BC of .588 in a 200 grain 30 cal bullet. If I'm shooting a 300 RUM and I can get this bullet to shoot well out to 700+ yards, I would have to consider this bullet as an alternative to a 240 SMK. A few years ago, what choice did I have?
By the way, the BC of the 200 grain SMK is .565 vs. .588 for the 200 AB. I would love to see a 240 accubond to see if the BC would rival the SMK there too.
Learch, they do make one that performs the same every time. The Nosler Partition. It will opene relatively fast, down to 1700fps,yet penetrate. With new manufacturing techniques they are accurate and consistent. They might not have as low a BC as some, but we have to set distance maxs at some point. I would rather have a bullet that was made to perform on game and limit my distance than one that was not made to perform and get another 100yds. Don't we owe that to the game? capt david
