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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Reloading
Bullet Runout
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<blockquote data-quote="victor" data-source="post: 134317" data-attributes="member: 3361"><p>Ok, I did some more discovery,</p><p></p><p>I measured my 270Wby Cases after firing in rifle:</p><p>Neck Dia = .303</p><p>Body Dia (where radius meets straight portion)= .495</p><p></p><p>Dimensions after sizing in Forester die (no button):</p><p>Neck Dia = .2965</p><p>Body dia = .492</p><p></p><p>Dimensions after sizing in RCBS die (with button):</p><p>Neck Dia = .299</p><p>Body Dia = .4925</p><p></p><p>RCBS Die leaves the brass slightly larger than the Forester Die. This would indicate a tighter fit/better alignment in chamber.</p><p></p><p>I also did a concentricity measurment on the cases after firing. The necks seemed to be in perfect alingnment with the body according to the concetricity gauge.</p><p></p><p>I then did a full length re-sizing in both dies and measured for concetricity. Both dies produced brass with the necks anywhere from perfect to .005 TIR.</p><p></p><p>I recall reading a previous post where somebody said to rotate the case in the die as you incrementally press the brass up into the die. This did improve concentricity on the neck readings. Average TIR with the Rotation method produced necks that were within .002 TIR and many better than that.</p><p></p><p>Note: I found that once the brass was fully formed in the RCBS die and it was .005 off center, you could not put it back in the same die and perform the rotation operation and improve the runout.</p><p>However, since the Forester die is a bit tighter (.0025), If the case is out of round after sizing in the RCBS die, I can size it again in the Forester die, utilizing the rotation operation as I press it in, and I can correct the runout substantially.</p><p></p><p>Conclusion: Rotating the brass as you incrementally press it up into the die will produce better aligned necks on your brass.</p><p></p><p>Next step was to try the rotation operation while incrementally seating the bullet. </p><p>This did not produce any benefits for me. It seemed that if a bullet started at an angle, It continued that way no matter how carefully you rotated it as you fed it upward. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif</p><p></p><p>Getting the bullet to start straight seems to be relegated to blind doo daa luck. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif</p><p></p><p>I read XPHUNTER's thread about the Bersin tool and decided to make a similar tool to see if it really could have an effect. Here is a pic of my version of the tool.</p><p> <img src="http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/victorlrh/BodydiewithBB-1.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /> </p><p> <img src="http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/victorlrh/BodyDie-2.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /> </p><p> <img src="http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/victorlrh/StraigteningTool-3.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /> </p><p></p><p>Here I took a body die, drilled a hole in the side to fit a BB (from son's BB gun). The full clearance hole for the BB does not go all the way thru. It allows the BB to protrude, but not fall out. Then I drilled another hole behind it and tapped it for a bolt. </p><p>The bolt is screwed in and it pushes the BB against the bullet, similar to the operation of the Bersin tool <a href="http://www.kinneman.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&amp;ID=1." target="_blank">http://www.kinneman.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&amp;ID=1.</a> </p><p></p><p>I am sad to report that my tool was a total flop /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif</p><p></p><p>It seems that it takes too much force to bring the bullet back into perfect alignment, and how do you know how far to go? You have to go past the point of elasticity to get the brass neck to hold it's shape and not spring back. How far is that, how do you guage it accuratley every time. I don't know. Even with a guage on the unit, I'm not sure that you can bring an out of round bullet back into alingment in a practical sense.</p><p>My tool only put a dimple in the brass if I tightened the bolt to push it over. If I rotated the bullet, it left a groove on the high side. When measured on the concentricity gauge, there was no improvement. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif</p><p></p><p>Seems like the only way to get a bullet seated concentricaly is to seat it straight from the get go. </p><p></p><p>Oh, one thing I did discover is that the long chamfered boat tail bullets like the SMK, ended up with much better alignment then the Nosler Accubond boat tails with the real small chamfer. This seems obvious by simple observation, but I had to prove it out just to be sure.</p><p></p><p>As Kraky mentioned this imperical data that I have collected is based on a very small sampling of bullets, so it does not carry a lot of weight. But it at least gives me an idea of what works and what does not work and tells me where I need improvement in my reloading methods. </p><p></p><p>The next step will be to turn the necks and see how much that helps. If the outside diameter of the neck is perfect and the bullet is .005 off, than it is either the bullet is canted inside the neck or the wall thickness is off and that is throwing it out of alignment (this seems to never end, doesn't it).</p><p></p><p>That being said, does anybody out there have any secret bullet seating dies that produce loaded bullets with superior alignment characteristics?</p><p></p><p>Best Regards,</p><p>Vic</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="victor, post: 134317, member: 3361"] Ok, I did some more discovery, I measured my 270Wby Cases after firing in rifle: Neck Dia = .303 Body Dia (where radius meets straight portion)= .495 Dimensions after sizing in Forester die (no button): Neck Dia = .2965 Body dia = .492 Dimensions after sizing in RCBS die (with button): Neck Dia = .299 Body Dia = .4925 RCBS Die leaves the brass slightly larger than the Forester Die. This would indicate a tighter fit/better alignment in chamber. I also did a concentricity measurment on the cases after firing. The necks seemed to be in perfect alingnment with the body according to the concetricity gauge. I then did a full length re-sizing in both dies and measured for concetricity. Both dies produced brass with the necks anywhere from perfect to .005 TIR. I recall reading a previous post where somebody said to rotate the case in the die as you incrementally press the brass up into the die. This did improve concentricity on the neck readings. Average TIR with the Rotation method produced necks that were within .002 TIR and many better than that. Note: I found that once the brass was fully formed in the RCBS die and it was .005 off center, you could not put it back in the same die and perform the rotation operation and improve the runout. However, since the Forester die is a bit tighter (.0025), If the case is out of round after sizing in the RCBS die, I can size it again in the Forester die, utilizing the rotation operation as I press it in, and I can correct the runout substantially. Conclusion: Rotating the brass as you incrementally press it up into the die will produce better aligned necks on your brass. Next step was to try the rotation operation while incrementally seating the bullet. This did not produce any benefits for me. It seemed that if a bullet started at an angle, It continued that way no matter how carefully you rotated it as you fed it upward. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Getting the bullet to start straight seems to be relegated to blind doo daa luck. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I read XPHUNTER's thread about the Bersin tool and decided to make a similar tool to see if it really could have an effect. Here is a pic of my version of the tool. [img]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/victorlrh/BodydiewithBB-1.jpg[/img] [img]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/victorlrh/BodyDie-2.jpg[/img] [img]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/victorlrh/StraigteningTool-3.jpg[/img] Here I took a body die, drilled a hole in the side to fit a BB (from son's BB gun). The full clearance hole for the BB does not go all the way thru. It allows the BB to protrude, but not fall out. Then I drilled another hole behind it and tapped it for a bolt. The bolt is screwed in and it pushes the BB against the bullet, similar to the operation of the Bersin tool [url="http://www.kinneman.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=1."]http://www.kinneman.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=1.[/url] I am sad to report that my tool was a total flop [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] It seems that it takes too much force to bring the bullet back into perfect alignment, and how do you know how far to go? You have to go past the point of elasticity to get the brass neck to hold it's shape and not spring back. How far is that, how do you guage it accuratley every time. I don't know. Even with a guage on the unit, I'm not sure that you can bring an out of round bullet back into alingment in a practical sense. My tool only put a dimple in the brass if I tightened the bolt to push it over. If I rotated the bullet, it left a groove on the high side. When measured on the concentricity gauge, there was no improvement. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Seems like the only way to get a bullet seated concentricaly is to seat it straight from the get go. Oh, one thing I did discover is that the long chamfered boat tail bullets like the SMK, ended up with much better alignment then the Nosler Accubond boat tails with the real small chamfer. This seems obvious by simple observation, but I had to prove it out just to be sure. As Kraky mentioned this imperical data that I have collected is based on a very small sampling of bullets, so it does not carry a lot of weight. But it at least gives me an idea of what works and what does not work and tells me where I need improvement in my reloading methods. The next step will be to turn the necks and see how much that helps. If the outside diameter of the neck is perfect and the bullet is .005 off, than it is either the bullet is canted inside the neck or the wall thickness is off and that is throwing it out of alignment (this seems to never end, doesn't it). That being said, does anybody out there have any secret bullet seating dies that produce loaded bullets with superior alignment characteristics? Best Regards, Vic [/QUOTE]
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