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<blockquote data-quote="dfanonymous" data-source="post: 1788693" data-attributes="member: 97050"><p>To my point, it's complicated in that everything is involved to include bullet design and construction, as well as anatomy, physiology, physics, ballistics to include external and terminal. To that end, I default to wildrose's points he makes, due to reliable ways of concluding antidotal data. However, again it's over simplifying it by KE alone, including your understanding of mass x velocity, which is correct but not the actual formula. Momentum is a byproduct of this. There is a reason why a 20mm cannon will kill you, even if shot in the clavicle, or hip, or what would normally be considered a disabling shot in small arms. A big part IS the KE for sure. Another is the momentum transferred to the target. Momentum that normally would have the weapon be mounted to something as momentum and recoil have correlation. To your car analogy, I'd still rather get hit by a baseball at 80 mph then a heavy bowling ball at 40 mph. I'd rather get hit by a car at 40 mph then a semi at 20. I hate car analogies past that, it's the same as guns, because while you might need speed in a race car, you need torque, traction and sometimes momentum plus skill in a 4x4 rock crawler. All are vehicles, but both do different things using different emphasis on measured forces to get from point A to B.</p><p></p><p>Some people like the speed and capacity of a 9mm but a .45 still has more momentum even though a 9mm can replicate its KE, and practically, and statistically, they both suck at killing based on numbers alone, thus making shot placement, and bullet design and function more important either way.</p><p></p><p>So, it's my personal opinion that to quantify a specific number to apply to lethality is difficult without considering all other things, not just KE alone, especially when in most ballistic gel test bone is not a factor, let alone different densities for different species, across a vast spectrum of variables. A fast small bullet that would work very well on a human or deer may not have the necessary momentum to enter vitals in another species. To much momentum will cause over penetration, and maintain its energy not dumping at least 50% but ideally 90-100% of its energy but still hits vitals. I believe absolute energy then needs to be determined at that point. Since archery has less overall KE on a target, penetration is very much relied upon, and the topic goes round and round.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="dfanonymous, post: 1788693, member: 97050"] To my point, it’s complicated in that everything is involved to include bullet design and construction, as well as anatomy, physiology, physics, ballistics to include external and terminal. To that end, I default to wildrose’s points he makes, due to reliable ways of concluding antidotal data. However, again it’s over simplifying it by KE alone, including your understanding of mass x velocity, which is correct but not the actual formula. Momentum is a byproduct of this. There is a reason why a 20mm cannon will kill you, even if shot in the clavicle, or hip, or what would normally be considered a disabling shot in small arms. A big part IS the KE for sure. Another is the momentum transferred to the target. Momentum that normally would have the weapon be mounted to something as momentum and recoil have correlation. To your car analogy, I’d still rather get hit by a baseball at 80 mph then a heavy bowling ball at 40 mph. I’d rather get hit by a car at 40 mph then a semi at 20. I hate car analogies past that, it’s the same as guns, because while you might need speed in a race car, you need torque, traction and sometimes momentum plus skill in a 4x4 rock crawler. All are vehicles, but both do different things using different emphasis on measured forces to get from point A to B. Some people like the speed and capacity of a 9mm but a .45 still has more momentum even though a 9mm can replicate its KE, and practically, and statistically, they both suck at killing based on numbers alone, thus making shot placement, and bullet design and function more important either way. So, it’s my personal opinion that to quantify a specific number to apply to lethality is difficult without considering all other things, not just KE alone, especially when in most ballistic gel test bone is not a factor, let alone different densities for different species, across a vast spectrum of variables. A fast small bullet that would work very well on a human or deer may not have the necessary momentum to enter vitals in another species. To much momentum will cause over penetration, and maintain its energy not dumping at least 50% but ideally 90-100% of its energy but still hits vitals. I believe absolute energy then needs to be determined at that point. Since archery has less overall KE on a target, penetration is very much relied upon, and the topic goes round and round. [/QUOTE]
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