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<blockquote data-quote="Bart B" data-source="post: 116967" data-attributes="member: 5302"><p>So you think a 300 RUM at max SAMMI pressure doesn't have nearly the life of my hottest 308 WCF (it's 308 Winchester, not 308 Winchester Center Fire) loads. Well, there's not more than about 3000 ppsi difference between specs as far as I know. If you've got some real data, let me know what it is. The .308's peak about 58,000 and the 300 RUM's about 61,000. But I know the perpencity of magnum owners ('specially on this forum) to throw more coal in their fire boxes to create more steam pressure in their boiler so it's no wonder to me they typically get 3-4 reloads per case. Such reloaders are sometimes referred to as METM's (pronounced 'met-ums). Any sport involving speed and power has lots of them. I've known a few users of .308's that used all sorts of tricks to get 300 fps more speed for a given bullet; a couple of them ruined their rifles (and sometimes their body parts) doing so. But that didn't happen until a few milliseconds after they pulled the trigger on a way-too-hot load.</p><p></p><p>No, I don't do any form of partial full-length resizing (PFLR). 'Tis interesting to me the process for this term has changed in the last few years. For decades, it meant to use a full-length sizing die on a bottleneck case such that the fired case neck was not sized all the way to the shoulder. This reduced fired case body diameters a few thousandths but set the shoulder forward a bit and sometimes made the case hard to chamber. It was used by folks who got too short a case life 'cause they set the shoulder back too far using regular full length sizing which meant to reduce all case diameters from pressure ring to case mouth and set the shoulder back. Nowadays, PFLR means different things to different folks and the original use has gone with the wind for most folks. I still use the original description for PFLR.</p><p></p><p>Well, of course primer pockets open up faster with more peak pressure. I don't think it's prudent to load cases that hot. But others do and that's fine with me. I don't like being by folks shooting such hot loads; I've been there and have almost memorized their screams when a case or barrel lets go; yes I was by a barrel when it blew apart looking like a half-peeled banana at the back end. The tool a friend uses to close primer pockets to again hold a primer is one he made. As I remember it's a round ball about 3/10ths inch in diameter laid in a shell holder pressing up on a case against a rod coming down from a die in his press. The ball's shape is such that it swages the top of the primer cup a bit smaller and that holds the primer in. I don't know of any commercial ones. I think it's best to keep peak pressures down to SAAMI-safe levels. One gets longer case (and primer pocket) life and best accuracy is much easier to attain. Besides, doing this gives one a reasonable safety margin in case something sneaks in to the system that'll cause really high pressure. Without a safety margin, something's gonna break.</p><p></p><p>We don't need to anneal case necks. I've never annealed a case neck. And we don't' use custom tight chambers and dies which is a very, very common and incorrect assumption. SAAMI chambers for a .308 Win. have neck diameters of about .344- to .345-inch. Our loaded round's neck diameters range from .331-inch with WCC58 super-thin walled .308 Win. match cases to .339-inch with some commercial cases. Lots of clearance, yes, but very, very accurate rifles and ammo that'll equal what any tight body/neck benchrest chamber/case combination out there produces and sometimes beats them. I and others use standard full-length sizing dies (RCBS for me) with their necks lapped out to .002- to .003-inch smaller than loaded round neck diameter; I've got seven at different diameters for different makes of cases with different neck wall thicknesses. And we set the shoulder back a couple thousandths as well as reducing body diameters from pressure ring to shoulder a few thousandths. For what it's worth, everybody can do this; it's easy.</p><p></p><p>Do I want the 300 RUM crowd to load at 308 velocities? No way. They would not like using a reduced load. Although many users of any given cartridge can't stand whatever velocities it gives a spectrum of bullets; they want more. So they cram more powder/power in the case, push pressures to near unsafe limits, then smile 'cause they've got a reasonably well performing volcano with a barrel on it.</p><p></p><p>Regarding my interesting conjecture on military brass versus commercial brass as far as reloading is concerned. A friend of mine used to be a field rep for Remington arms and we shot a lot together. He sometimes talked about Remington's folks operating the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Missouri and their case making operations compared to the commercial stuff Remington made. Military brass has to be harder and thicker to withstand the rigors of storage, shipping, handling, use (including very high pressures at times) and reliability. Commercial brass is more ductile and forms much easier which makes it easier to reload and metal fatigue from multiple sizing operations doesn't happen as often. Commercial brass is also more uniform than military brass and therefore is more accurate. I heard the same stuff from an engineer at Lake City's plant when I had to talk to them about some poor quality 7.62mm NATO M118 match ammo a military unit I was in was shipped (horrible accuracy!!!!) No self-respecting highpower competitor (benchrester, either) I know of ever uses military brass if he expects to shoot winning and/or record setting scores. Call the cartridge brass making companies and ask them what the difference is and why they take no active steps to make commercial brass inherently reloadable if that's your belief.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bart B, post: 116967, member: 5302"] So you think a 300 RUM at max SAMMI pressure doesn't have nearly the life of my hottest 308 WCF (it’s 308 Winchester, not 308 Winchester Center Fire) loads. Well, there’s not more than about 3000 ppsi difference between specs as far as I know. If you've got some real data, let me know what it is. The .308's peak about 58,000 and the 300 RUM’s about 61,000. But I know the perpencity of magnum owners (‘specially on this forum) to throw more coal in their fire boxes to create more steam pressure in their boiler so it’s no wonder to me they typically get 3-4 reloads per case. Such reloaders are sometimes referred to as METM’s (pronounced 'met-ums). Any sport involving speed and power has lots of them. I’ve known a few users of .308's that used all sorts of tricks to get 300 fps more speed for a given bullet; a couple of them ruined their rifles (and sometimes their body parts) doing so. But that didn’t happen until a few milliseconds after they pulled the trigger on a way-too-hot load. No, I don’t do any form of partial full-length resizing (PFLR). ‘Tis interesting to me the process for this term has changed in the last few years. For decades, it meant to use a full-length sizing die on a bottleneck case such that the fired case neck was not sized all the way to the shoulder. This reduced fired case body diameters a few thousandths but set the shoulder forward a bit and sometimes made the case hard to chamber. It was used by folks who got too short a case life ‘cause they set the shoulder back too far using regular full length sizing which meant to reduce all case diameters from pressure ring to case mouth and set the shoulder back. Nowadays, PFLR means different things to different folks and the original use has gone with the wind for most folks. I still use the original description for PFLR. Well, of course primer pockets open up faster with more peak pressure. I don’t think it’s prudent to load cases that hot. But others do and that’s fine with me. I don’t like being by folks shooting such hot loads; I’ve been there and have almost memorized their screams when a case or barrel lets go; yes I was by a barrel when it blew apart looking like a half-peeled banana at the back end. The tool a friend uses to close primer pockets to again hold a primer is one he made. As I remember it’s a round ball about 3/10ths inch in diameter laid in a shell holder pressing up on a case against a rod coming down from a die in his press. The ball’s shape is such that it swages the top of the primer cup a bit smaller and that holds the primer in. I don’t know of any commercial ones. I think it’s best to keep peak pressures down to SAAMI-safe levels. One gets longer case (and primer pocket) life and best accuracy is much easier to attain. Besides, doing this gives one a reasonable safety margin in case something sneaks in to the system that’ll cause really high pressure. Without a safety margin, something’s gonna break. We don't need to anneal case necks. I've never annealed a case neck. And we don’t’ use custom tight chambers and dies which is a very, very common and incorrect assumption. SAAMI chambers for a .308 Win. have neck diameters of about .344- to .345-inch. Our loaded round’s neck diameters range from .331-inch with WCC58 super-thin walled .308 Win. match cases to .339-inch with some commercial cases. Lots of clearance, yes, but very, very accurate rifles and ammo that’ll equal what any tight body/neck benchrest chamber/case combination out there produces and sometimes beats them. I and others use standard full-length sizing dies (RCBS for me) with their necks lapped out to .002- to .003-inch smaller than loaded round neck diameter; I’ve got seven at different diameters for different makes of cases with different neck wall thicknesses. And we set the shoulder back a couple thousandths as well as reducing body diameters from pressure ring to shoulder a few thousandths. For what it’s worth, everybody can do this; it’s easy. Do I want the 300 RUM crowd to load at 308 velocities? No way. They would not like using a reduced load. Although many users of any given cartridge can’t stand whatever velocities it gives a spectrum of bullets; they want more. So they cram more powder/power in the case, push pressures to near unsafe limits, then smile ‘cause they’ve got a reasonably well performing volcano with a barrel on it. Regarding my interesting conjecture on military brass versus commercial brass as far as reloading is concerned. A friend of mine used to be a field rep for Remington arms and we shot a lot together. He sometimes talked about Remington’s folks operating the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Missouri and their case making operations compared to the commercial stuff Remington made. Military brass has to be harder and thicker to withstand the rigors of storage, shipping, handling, use (including very high pressures at times) and reliability. Commercial brass is more ductile and forms much easier which makes it easier to reload and metal fatigue from multiple sizing operations doesn’t happen as often. Commercial brass is also more uniform than military brass and therefore is more accurate. I heard the same stuff from an engineer at Lake City's plant when I had to talk to them about some poor quality 7.62mm NATO M118 match ammo a military unit I was in was shipped (horrible accuracy!!!!) No self-respecting highpower competitor (benchrester, either) I know of ever uses military brass if he expects to shoot winning and/or record setting scores. Call the cartridge brass making companies and ask them what the difference is and why they take no active steps to make commercial brass inherently reloadable if that’s your belief. [/QUOTE]
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