Boone&Crockett ->Zeiss Rapid-Z ?'s

Discussion in 'Long Range Scopes and Other Optics' started by ol mike, Sep 27, 2007.

  1. ol mike

    ol mike Well-Known Member

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    I am interested in some details on these type reticles ,here's my wonderings.

    They come in different ? stages of reticles to match different performance levels of cartridges.
    And you can set the gun to the reticle and all the hash marks ? how do you fine tune this set-up ?

    Do you have to accept a possible higher or lower point of impact than normal at 100 yds -to get the 4-500yd reticles to work?

    I can't figure out how the reticle system can be for -say a 243 -a 243 can shoot a 55gr bullet at 4000fps or a 105gr at 3000fps ,how do you set the reticle for the differing trajectories ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2007
  2. MT4XFore

    MT4XFore Well-Known Member

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    Ol Mike, You have hit upon the reason most of the folks on this forum like to
    click rather than depend upon Ballistic Drop Compensating (BDC) reticles. I do
    not necessarilly include myself in that category however. In the example you
    used of the .243, you must first decide what you are going to use that gun primarily for. Varmits (ie. 55gr. bullet) or larger game/long range ( ie. 105 gr. bullet). Once you decide that, then you can choose, for example, the Leupold varmint hunters reticle/rapid Z varmint hunters reticle (55gr) or the Leupold B&C reticle/rapid Z 600, 800, or 1000yd reticle (105 gr. bullet) Most all BDC reticle scopes are made for a "class" of cartridges that exhibit very similar trajectory tracks. They will usually be very close and occasionally smack on. It is most important however, that if you choose to use one of these you zero the rifle where the manf. says to zero it, and then check it at all the yardages you intend to shoot. It is probably possible to alter your load in such a manner that it will fit the ballistic profile of your particular reticle perfectly. I cant imagine the amount of time and components that might generate though. Hope this long winded opinion helps.
    Jim
     

  3. jwp475

    jwp475 Well-Known Member

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    A BDC reticle that works with any load and speed of bullet is the Nightforce MOA reticles such as the NPR-1 & NPR-2 reticles..........[​IMG]
     
  4. ol mike

    ol mike Well-Known Member

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    MT4

    I read a thread over on 24hr campfire about the B&C leupold ,from what i gathered you could fine tune at a reasonable point of impact.

    If you are low on the longrange reticles [4-5 and 600 yard hash marks] -i guess you can go up a click or two [on your mpbr] then be very close or on the money at longrange.

    That way you might have to remember that you are a little high in the middle of your mpbr ?

    I just don't have any expierence w/ anything but a duplex reticle ,-i mostly predator hunt and coyotes don't stand and graze and give you lots of time to range and click.
    Just keeping your eyes on a coyote in the sage brush at 350-400yds is a challenge.
    So the idea of a reticle -where a hunter can laser-range the distance and place a reticle w/elevation and windage hash marks on a figety coyote would be great.

    I just don't know if a set-up like this could be truly fine tuned to the point of not having to try to remember too much.

    jwp475 -a nightforce is a little out of the budget for now -but i will do some rooting around on the site for the np-1 and 2
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2007
  5. MT4XFore

    MT4XFore Well-Known Member

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    Mike, I hear ya buddy, and I feel your pain. Nikon's version of a BDC reticle is,
    interestingly enough, called the BDC reticle. It features circles below the center crosswire that decrease in size as the yardage increases. With the circle idea you actually have 3 separate points of aim for each circle, top, middle, and bottom. The sides of the circles can actually be used as hold offs for small windage corrections. The buckmaster line of Nikon's are very affordable. I have one of these and it is very easy to use. Maybe another idea?
    Jim
     
  6. Sendero_Man

    Sendero_Man <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    ol mike-

    The B&C reticle is made for either a 200 or 300 zero. The first hash mark is 300 yards @2.19 MOA or 6.8 inches drop, the second is 400 yards @ 4.80 MOA or 20.11 inches drop, the third is 450 yards 6.26 MOA or 29.5 inches, the last is 500 yards @ 7.82 MOA or 40.95 inches.

    This data is from my leupold catalog that explains the reticle.

    Running a 243 load thru Exbal shows that with a 200 yard zero, a 100 grain hornady at 3000 fps and 5000 ft. asl would almost perfectly match this reticle.

    Also, a 243 shooting a 75 VMAX at 3000 fps would work real well for that B&C reticle... see below.

    Sight Adjustments Needed
    RANGE Elevation Windage Tgt Lead Elevation
    (yd) MOA MOA MOA (in)
    0 0.00 0.00 0.00 -1.5
    50 -1.00 0.25 1.75 0.5
    100 -1.50 0.75 1.75 1.5
    150 -1.00 1.00 1.75 1.4
    200 0.00 1.50 1.75 0.0
    250 1.00 1.75 1.75 -2.7
    300 2.25 2.25 2.00 -6.9
    350 3.50 2.75 2.00 -12.7
    400 4.75 3.25 2.00 -20.3
    450 6.25 3.75 2.00 -29.8
    500 8.00 4.25 2.00 -41.4


    hope this helps you out. this is based on 5000 ft elevation.

    Good luck
     
  7. Thor

    Thor Member

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    Don't get too hung up on the Group A,B or C thing. These reticles are valuable and can be spot on accurate with any cartridge, bullet, elevation combination if you do a little homework first. The reticle's hash marks are a set distance (MOA measurement) apart. I've got a VXIII 2.5-8 x 36mm with B&C on a .270 Win.

    Leupold Boone and Crockett Reticle

    Center reticle: Any zeroed distance
    First Hash: 2.19 MOA (large triangle) 2.74 MOA (small triangle) 2.16 MOA (10mph drift)
    Second Hash: 4.80 MOA (large tri) 6.00 MOA (small tri) 3.03 MOA (10 mph)
    Third Hash: 6.26 MOA (large tri) 7.83 MOA (small tri) No windage mark
    Top of lower Post: 7.82 MOA (large tri) 9.78 MOA (small tri) No windage mark


    You can take any cartridge, bullet, elevation combination and the reticle can be accurate. For example: (ran on ExBal)

    .243 55 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip Varmint (B.C 0.264) 4000 fps, 5000 ft., 59 F
    With 8x scope on large triange (8X Zoom): 200 yd zero, 10 mph wind

    Center Reticle: 200 yds Windage: 1.25 MOA needed
    First Hash: 365 yds Wind Hash (2.16 MOA): just over 2.50 MOA needed
    Second Hash: 509 yds Wind Hash (3.03 MOA): just over 3.75 MOA needed
    Third Hash: 576 yds Windage needed: 4.50 MOA
    Fourth Hash: 640 yds Windage needed: just under 5.25 MOA needed

    .243 100 gr Nosler Partition (B.C 0.409) 3000 fps, 5000 ft, 59 F
    with 8x scope on large triangle (8X zoom): 200 yd zero, 10 mph wind

    Center reticle: 200 yds Windage: 1.25 MOA needed
    First Hash: 308 yds Windage (2.16 MOA): just over 1.75 MOA needed
    Second Hash: 411 yds Windage (3.03 MOA): just over 2.50 MOA needed
    Third Hash: 466 yds Windage: just under 3.00 MOA needed
    Fourth Hash: 520 yds Windage: just under 3.50 MOA needed

    The windage for the 466 yds and 520 yds can be calculated very closely by using the second windage hash (3.03 MOA). If a guy knows the numbers for a given load, he can calculate any yardage in between pretty easily.

    Exbal allows you to calculate yardages for any power magnification ballistic reticle for any chosen zeroed yardage if you know the hash mark separation. Other software may too, my only experience is with Exbal... it's the one I use.

    Once you chronograph your load, just plug in the numbers and confirm them at the range. Usually Exbal is very close but sometimes a rifle needs 0.25 MOA more or less at a certain range.

    Hope this helps a little.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2007
  8. G-gear

    G-gear Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2010
  9. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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  10. G-gear

    G-gear Well-Known Member

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    Zeiss Rapid Z 800 & 1000 scopes for M1A .308 UPDATE
    'Been doing some hunting for the best scope for my Springfield M1A (M21).

    Springfield Armory Rifles

    gun)

    ZEISS RAPID Z 1000 RETICLE vs. RAPID Z 800 RETICLE
    Both are around $925
    And both are 4.5-14x50

    http://www.zeiss.de/C1256BCF0020BE5F/Contents-Frame/E34E4125AA548D6685256BCF0061320D

    Note: Please enter your information into our Rapid-Z Calculator to ensure that you make the best possible reticle selection
    based on your caliber, bullet, hunting conditions and location.

    According to their calculator for the Rapid Z 1000 (designed for the .308 Match bullets):
    This IS the value for .308, Sierra 168-gr. MK (BC =.462),
    Velocity: 2,550 fps,
    Elevation: 4,500 ft. ASL
    Temp: 80 degrees F

    The Rapid Z 1000
    With their calculator, and the scope power ring set to 11.87 (12 power):
    They say to zero dead-on at 500 yards with the Bar 5. (Bar 5 is the center crosshair.)
    At Bar 1 will impact at 154 yards (or zero at 154 yards with Bar 1).
    Bar 2 = 224 (Bars 1 - 4 are above the center crosshair Bar 5.)
    Bar 3 = 316
    Bar 4 = 406
    Bar 5 = 500
    Bar 6 = 595
    Bar 7 = 692
    Bar 8 = 791
    Bar 9 = 892
    Bar 10 = 993
    This is seemingly unbeatable.

    Now, with the Rapid Z 800:
    With the M1A, same load, they say to put the power ring at 14 power.
    Sight in at 1.77" high @ 100 yards for a 200 yard zero (Center Crosshairs).
    Bar 2 will impact at 295 yards (an unmarked bar). (All Bars are below the center crosshairs.)
    Bar 4 = 395
    Bar 5 = 495
    Bar 6 = 596
    Bar 7 = 698
    Bar 8 = 800

    I know it's not 1,000 - but rather versatile anyway...

    :rolleyes: So, I'm deciding on which to choose.
    More field of view at 12 power with the Z 1000, than 14x on the Z 800.
    And the Z 800 is intended for other calibers, but, look what it does for the .308!

    lightbulb
    But, if you definitely need it backed-off at the lowest 4.5 power also, then the Z 800 will work for both close-quarter work and long-range.
    At 4.5 power, just use the center crosshairs for 0-300 yards - then for precision: Zoom to 14x for 200-800+yards.

    Q. What would the Z 1000 do at 4.5 power? - when it is set up for all ranges (100-1000) at 12 power?
    A. (Dead-on at 500 ONLY.)

    Maybe we can't have our cake, and eat it too. :D

    So, for me, THE DECISION IS: Z 800 !

    G-gear
    chris_59@q.com

    You can check-out their reticles here:
    Zeiss Rapid Z 1000
    Zeiss | 4.5-14x50 AO MC Conquest Riflescope | 52 14 90 9973

    Zeiss Rapid Z 800
    Zeiss 4.5-14x50 800
     
  11. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Q
    Yes you can Exbal reticle tool can figure all drops for all reticles at any power.

    Click on the "No click carry gun" thread above and then clic on the pics showing drops on a 3-9 TDS reticle for 6X, 7X, 8X and 9X going from 312-702 yds at about 40-50 yd intervals just by changing power and stadia wires.

    You simply use exbal as normal to figure a zero range and drop chart, then go into the reticle tool, put the scopes max power in for max power and operationg power and put the distances between aim points and hit calculate. Change the operation power to the next power you want to figure and go again. Repeat as often as you have powers to figure.

    BH
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2010
  12. mike33

    mike33 Well-Known Member

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    With the rapid z of the zeiss i was reading sometime ago that say you had a 4.5-14 you had to keep it at say 10x, is that true? I have both the 4.5-14 b& c and the varm. ret. and they work well. Have to compare the moa of the reticle and then go to exbal. Most of my guns are high vel. and i get more mileage out of the hash marks. On my 6mm x284 using the varm, ret. i can use the bottom hash which is for range finding but it is over 2 moa ,allows me to shoot dead on at 600 yards
    mikke
     
  13. sscoyote

    sscoyote Well-Known Member

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    I always apply my reticles at the optic's highest power, and just do MOA (reticle vs. trajectory) as well, but i'm beginning to think that the better way to do it is with a ballistic (BDC reticle) that is adjusted to the proper magnification that will allow for the best even hundred yd. intervals for hunting purposes. I'm only going out to ~600 yds. though on my hunting rigs.

    This theory of mine is especially true for coyotes since they are so mobile, and sometimes (oftentimes) the shot has to be gotten off quickly, and there is no time to be continuously looking back and forth at a drop chart on the most mobile animal on earth, seems like. A buddy of mine is doing this with his VH reticle in a Leupold and killing coyotes out to 650 yds. using the reticle--AND HE'S DOING IT FASTER THAN ANY OTHER SYSTEM WOULD ALLOW HIM!!

    The problem with adjusting the magnification (and consequently reticle subtension) is that the subtensions are adjusted proportionally and sometimes (actually most of the time) the true trajectory doesn't match up perfectly with the ballistics profile for any # of reasons.

    Here's what i would do. I'd get a BDC reticle, the subtensions of which, at the optic's highest power are close to your ballistics profile. Then go out and test it (total bullet drop) at all the yardages, noting MOA error at each range. Go to the 100-yd. target and plot the points of impact (in MOA), and then adjust the power of the optic until the lower stadia points line up as closely as possible (especially the further ranges). Then as finely as possible make a mark in such a way that u can define that magnification as precisely as possible (Leupold does this very well actually).

    Another option (and probably the best 1 actually) is to wring your load out as perfectly as possible and just get Leupold or TK Lee to make u a custom dot system set up in MOA at even hundred yd. intervals. TK Lee's not too expensive, but i don't know about Leup. Then when the rig goes on a different gun/trajectory do the above procedure and it'll still work similarly with a different load, or just do the subtension vs. trajectory at optic's highest power that's been disussed here some already. The whole idea when hunting coyotes is to have the best possible system that takes the least amt. of time to apply.


    As far as i can see this will give u the fastest (and easiest) system of long-range (intermediate range actually) target engagement possible since it will be intuitive with probably just a little practice.
     
  14. sscoyote

    sscoyote Well-Known Member

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    Couple weeks ago this buddy and i were out hunting coyotes and had 1 coming into a call at very long range. When he hit ~600 yds. i started calling off range to him amd he was just watching and thinking about his reticle zeros. When the dog hit 535 he stopped at a growl momentarily and my buddy shot almost as soon as i called off the range to him, and he killed it. Had he been running a turret he wouldn't have been able to get the shot off quickly enuf. Even if he'd have not had an intuitve system with his reticle he wouldn't have had enuf time for a shot since he would have had to take the time to look at a drop chart (much easier when the drop chart is in your head).

    Couple days ago we had 1 coming in and he blew the 300-yd. shot. The dog takes off and i ki-yi at him. When he gets to 600 i called off the range as best i could. Then the dog stops for a couple seconds for a marking crap and starts to howl. As quickly as possible my buddy puts the lower post (~600 yds.) at the top of the dogs nose and touches it off hitting him dead in the chest--no time for anything but intuition, and his intuitive reticle saved the day (the only dog we got that day, BTW).

    Anybody that hunts coyotes knows that u better be fast.