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<blockquote data-quote="Fiftydriver" data-source="post: 174811" data-attributes="member: 10"><p>Coyboy,</p><p> </p><p>I suspect your area of hunting is much different then where I hunt. Here in Montana for example, in many areas, you could spot a herd of pronghorns for example and chase them for 10 miles before crossing a fence to another section of property.</p><p> </p><p>I have seen hundreds of times where a herd of pronghorns were run so hard, they simply could not run any more and just stood there. Basically giving up and letting someone take a shot at the herd. </p><p> </p><p>There are alot of locals that do this but there are just as many out of state hunters doing this as well.</p><p> </p><p>Same thing for the deer. Mainly mule deer. I had a good 5x5 mule deer run by me this year. He was a nice buck, 160 class. He had no idea I was even there but I watched two hunters push this buck on quads for nearly 3 miles across the open prairie. By the time he got to me, he was only 50 yards away, I was sitting at my usual ambush point. His mouth was hanging wide open and his tougne floopping around like a german shepards would. I simply let him walk even though he was probably larger then any mule deer I have shot yet in my hunting career.</p><p> </p><p>The two guys drove up to the fence line of the property I was hunting, they did not have permission. They dropped the gate and as soon as I saw this, I stood up making sure they saw me. They instantly jumped on their quads and got the hell out of there, not even putting the gate back up.</p><p> </p><p>I have also witnessed dozens of times hunters conducting drives in heavy river bottom brush and taking shots at flashes of deer they see running through the brush. Is this within the law, certainly, is this ethical, thats your own call, to me, its far worse then shooting at a calm animal at 1000 yards but that is my opinion.</p><p> </p><p>Also, your season is 9 days old. I am taking about a season that is generally at least 35 days long, that is not counting the month of bow hunting prior to the general big game season and yes, bow hunters stress game more then most would even want you to believe.</p><p> </p><p>Case in point, the missouri River breaks national park. Used to be the meca for extremely large bull elk in very good numbers. Problem was that many started to figure out that it was far to difficult to draw a rifle permit in this area but here in Montana, you can simply buy an over the counter elk tag and bow hunt in this area so the number of bow hunters exploded. </p><p> </p><p>Now there are still huge elk in this area, I personally know a guy that took a 404 class bull there this year, but the numbers of big bulls and elk in general in this area are WAY down in just the past several years and it can be directly connected to the increase in bow hunters in this area.</p><p> </p><p>We do not have many wolves in my area, or other major predators. Mainly extreme cold and high winds is the main killer of the big game. Generally its the very old and young that get killed, one may say thats the natural way and I would agree, but to my way of thinking, if an old or young big game animal was not chased repeatedly during the five weeks going into big game season, they would have much more energy reserves to possibly survive the winter stresses.</p><p> </p><p>Your examples of the elk being stressed by their natural behaviors are certainly true. That is going to happen, if it does not, we do not get the best genetics for the next generation of elk calves. That is nature. A group of idiots working with illegal radios to chase the elk for 10 miles only adds to that stress, unnatural stress I would add. That is my point exactly, their lives are already stressful enough, I am just glad to see the time come everyyear when they get a break from us humans.</p><p> </p><p>Also, do not get me wrong about close range hunting. Before I started building rifles, I hunted with handguns, SOLELY. I did this for over 10 years straight. Some were big single shot handguns but many were just traditional open sighted revolvers. Anyone that is familiar with modern archery equipment and traditional open sighted revolvers know that the modern bow will offer much better ranging ability, at least from a shootability stand point. I can put 3 arrows in 8" consistantly at 100 yards. I can not say I can do the same with a 6" barreled open sighted 45 Colt shooting offhand. Much more challanging in my opinion.</p><p> </p><p>When I would hunt with handguns on the riverbottoms near my house, I would set up in ground blinds and basically blend away into the brush. I would see 15 to 50 deer a night, many of which getting with in yards of me and if the wind was right they would never know I was there.</p><p> </p><p>I could do that night after night, seeing the same deer over and over for one reason, I was in their world but not making it mine. I would hunt generally 30 of the 35 days of the year waiting for that one buck I wanted to shoot. Every day seeing the same deer and eventually a wondering buck would show up as well.</p><p> </p><p>Point is, if done right, the deer and elk will never change their habits. IF done wrong, which it generally is, the deer and elk are moved all over hell.</p><p> </p><p>My point is simple, I just feel bad knowing the amount of stress that humans impose on these big game animals over our 9 weeks of hunting season between archery and rifle hunting.</p><p> </p><p>Again, I support everyones right to hunt as they wish as long as its legal but that does not mean I feel that all legal hunting is ethical. We get the same hammer on us for long range hunting but when you get educated about both sides of the arguement. No educated person could say long range hunting is less ethical then most conventional hunters do all the time while throwing the ethical bomb at us.</p><p> </p><p>Do not think for one minute that those 650,000 hunters in your state do not result in game dieing from stress even though its only for 9 days of chasing.</p><p> </p><p>I just drove home from town, 15 miles away. One 5 mile section of road I counted 18 blood smears on the highway from deer being killed. All of those were killed during the last 4 days of big game season. I travel that road everyday and get to count the losses. Most were killed in the morning or evening during day light hours. Why, because the section of highway runs along some river bottom and the hunters in that area push them out. I would bet 80% of those deer that were hit were running from hunters. Most are does and this time of year, most will have been bred, so if you figure even 1/2 were bred does, thats 27 deer lost in 4 days. Part of life certainly but alot of that is caused by direct hunter contact.</p><p> </p><p>Again, not anti hunter by any means, just realize the stress we put on the game even if unintended. Its dramatic to say the least and I am glad everyyear when they get a break. Interstingly enough, there has not been a deer killed on that section of road since hunting season ended. If we are conscience about the stresses we impose on the game, it will make us better hunters and better conservationists as well.</p><p> </p><p>There is no group of people that have helped big game populations more then hunters but some of us still do alot of harm when that is really not needed in order to fill our tags, quite the opposite is true in fact.</p><p> </p><p>Kirby Allen(50)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fiftydriver, post: 174811, member: 10"] Coyboy, I suspect your area of hunting is much different then where I hunt. Here in Montana for example, in many areas, you could spot a herd of pronghorns for example and chase them for 10 miles before crossing a fence to another section of property. I have seen hundreds of times where a herd of pronghorns were run so hard, they simply could not run any more and just stood there. Basically giving up and letting someone take a shot at the herd. There are alot of locals that do this but there are just as many out of state hunters doing this as well. Same thing for the deer. Mainly mule deer. I had a good 5x5 mule deer run by me this year. He was a nice buck, 160 class. He had no idea I was even there but I watched two hunters push this buck on quads for nearly 3 miles across the open prairie. By the time he got to me, he was only 50 yards away, I was sitting at my usual ambush point. His mouth was hanging wide open and his tougne floopping around like a german shepards would. I simply let him walk even though he was probably larger then any mule deer I have shot yet in my hunting career. The two guys drove up to the fence line of the property I was hunting, they did not have permission. They dropped the gate and as soon as I saw this, I stood up making sure they saw me. They instantly jumped on their quads and got the hell out of there, not even putting the gate back up. I have also witnessed dozens of times hunters conducting drives in heavy river bottom brush and taking shots at flashes of deer they see running through the brush. Is this within the law, certainly, is this ethical, thats your own call, to me, its far worse then shooting at a calm animal at 1000 yards but that is my opinion. Also, your season is 9 days old. I am taking about a season that is generally at least 35 days long, that is not counting the month of bow hunting prior to the general big game season and yes, bow hunters stress game more then most would even want you to believe. Case in point, the missouri River breaks national park. Used to be the meca for extremely large bull elk in very good numbers. Problem was that many started to figure out that it was far to difficult to draw a rifle permit in this area but here in Montana, you can simply buy an over the counter elk tag and bow hunt in this area so the number of bow hunters exploded. Now there are still huge elk in this area, I personally know a guy that took a 404 class bull there this year, but the numbers of big bulls and elk in general in this area are WAY down in just the past several years and it can be directly connected to the increase in bow hunters in this area. We do not have many wolves in my area, or other major predators. Mainly extreme cold and high winds is the main killer of the big game. Generally its the very old and young that get killed, one may say thats the natural way and I would agree, but to my way of thinking, if an old or young big game animal was not chased repeatedly during the five weeks going into big game season, they would have much more energy reserves to possibly survive the winter stresses. Your examples of the elk being stressed by their natural behaviors are certainly true. That is going to happen, if it does not, we do not get the best genetics for the next generation of elk calves. That is nature. A group of idiots working with illegal radios to chase the elk for 10 miles only adds to that stress, unnatural stress I would add. That is my point exactly, their lives are already stressful enough, I am just glad to see the time come everyyear when they get a break from us humans. Also, do not get me wrong about close range hunting. Before I started building rifles, I hunted with handguns, SOLELY. I did this for over 10 years straight. Some were big single shot handguns but many were just traditional open sighted revolvers. Anyone that is familiar with modern archery equipment and traditional open sighted revolvers know that the modern bow will offer much better ranging ability, at least from a shootability stand point. I can put 3 arrows in 8" consistantly at 100 yards. I can not say I can do the same with a 6" barreled open sighted 45 Colt shooting offhand. Much more challanging in my opinion. When I would hunt with handguns on the riverbottoms near my house, I would set up in ground blinds and basically blend away into the brush. I would see 15 to 50 deer a night, many of which getting with in yards of me and if the wind was right they would never know I was there. I could do that night after night, seeing the same deer over and over for one reason, I was in their world but not making it mine. I would hunt generally 30 of the 35 days of the year waiting for that one buck I wanted to shoot. Every day seeing the same deer and eventually a wondering buck would show up as well. Point is, if done right, the deer and elk will never change their habits. IF done wrong, which it generally is, the deer and elk are moved all over hell. My point is simple, I just feel bad knowing the amount of stress that humans impose on these big game animals over our 9 weeks of hunting season between archery and rifle hunting. Again, I support everyones right to hunt as they wish as long as its legal but that does not mean I feel that all legal hunting is ethical. We get the same hammer on us for long range hunting but when you get educated about both sides of the arguement. No educated person could say long range hunting is less ethical then most conventional hunters do all the time while throwing the ethical bomb at us. Do not think for one minute that those 650,000 hunters in your state do not result in game dieing from stress even though its only for 9 days of chasing. I just drove home from town, 15 miles away. One 5 mile section of road I counted 18 blood smears on the highway from deer being killed. All of those were killed during the last 4 days of big game season. I travel that road everyday and get to count the losses. Most were killed in the morning or evening during day light hours. Why, because the section of highway runs along some river bottom and the hunters in that area push them out. I would bet 80% of those deer that were hit were running from hunters. Most are does and this time of year, most will have been bred, so if you figure even 1/2 were bred does, thats 27 deer lost in 4 days. Part of life certainly but alot of that is caused by direct hunter contact. Again, not anti hunter by any means, just realize the stress we put on the game even if unintended. Its dramatic to say the least and I am glad everyyear when they get a break. Interstingly enough, there has not been a deer killed on that section of road since hunting season ended. If we are conscience about the stresses we impose on the game, it will make us better hunters and better conservationists as well. There is no group of people that have helped big game populations more then hunters but some of us still do alot of harm when that is really not needed in order to fill our tags, quite the opposite is true in fact. Kirby Allen(50) [/QUOTE]
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