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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Equipment Discussions
Bill & Lerch's "APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag"
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<blockquote data-quote="goodgrouper" data-source="post: 149169" data-attributes="member: 2852"><p><strong>Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"</strong></p><p></p><p>Lerch and Bill,</p><p>You guys crack me up. You can't honestly believe I'm the only one on earth that doesn't like the idea of abrasive material flying down a soft stainless steel barrel at over the speed of sound. As with any debate, those that support the "non-popular" view do not always chime in because of the fear of confrontation. Well, I'm obviously supporting the non-popular view against a few guys who either can't admit or won't admit that they might be doing something that can hurt their expensive toys. Perhaps it is a defense mechanism. But I will have you know, I have recieved 4 emails from fellas in the last 2 days saying that they tried cormeal fireforming with horrific results, or they were told not to by their gunsmiths or barrel makers. They simply didn't want to post here because they would obviously be the underdog to this crowd. Well, I don't care now or will ever care if I am the underdog. I know what I know and I've seen what I've seen and I will not be made to look like I'm the only one around who doesn't agree with your breakfast blasting. </p><p></p><p>Perhaps you should do some research before you label me as a lunatic. THus far, you are riding on the sole opinion of two gunsmiths (who I respect also) who both admit that firing cornmeal would be best done in a scrap barrel. I have done the research and was just putting it out there to help cause I thought we were pals and you guys cop an attitude and act like your metallurgists or something. You guys have ONE gun of which you have yet to fire with real bullets. Kirby has one 338 and has had some fantastic results no doubt, but he has less than 300 rounds through it so I wouldn't say that is exactly a lot of info to go on. No doubt it shoots good, but I never said a breakfast blasted barrel wouldn't shoot good. I simply said that it is abrasive and can reduce barrel life and harm barrels. I AM NOT ALONE ON THIS! Do some reading, attend some br matches, ask some barrel mfctrs, quiz a few gunsmiths and you'll find out that not everyone will recommend fireforming with cormeal. Of the ones who do use it, the majority of them are <em>using it in takeoff barrels only, not in their competetion barrels.</em> </p><p></p><p>Of the particular barrels I saw that had been fireformed in this manner, they looked like they had scratched and rounded off the edge of the rifling for a few inches in front of the throat and again at the muzzle. I am not making this up!</p><p></p><p>Now I have no doubt that Kirby has experimented with this in his big case and it very well may be the only way to get the cases fireformed in this particular caliber. If he feels it is best than it must be. I never said that it wouldn't fireform the cases or make anything not shoot as good. I said that it will affect the condition of the barrel. I may have exaggerated the half barrel life thing, but maybe not. It could be more, could be less. You might not even notice a difference in accuracy while the barrel is new. </p><p></p><p>Anyhow, I'm done debating this. I really don't care one way or another if you believe me or not but at least do some research and ask some more questions before you single a guy out as "nit-picky", "crazy" or "over-exaggerative" </p><p>just because he presents a different view of the world.</p><p></p><p>Remember, I have been around this block a few times myself and I have put more rounds down two custom 338 wildcats than yourselves or Kirby. I deal with firearms everyday and I'm not talking about sitting in a gun shop selling them. I use them and work on them everyday and have probably turned more guns into 1k shooters than most guys ever imagine. In this process, I have learned a thing or two and I get an interesting perspective on things that most people will never be in a position to learn. It is from this that I try to give a tidbit of advice to help a brother out once in awhile and I speak my mind when others are afraid to. Those are my faults. Being a liar or not a straight-shooter are not. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh, and one last thing before I step down from this soapbox: You state this gun "only has 1000 rounds of barrel life so why waste them". Well, consider this: The 338 lapua improved shooting 300 grain mk's wore out a barrel in less than 300 rounds. By wore out I mean firecracked the hell out of the first three inches of throat so bad that it took a full day to clean the pig and it degraded the bc of the bullet a full point. A 338 ultra mag improved shooting 225 grain bullets has significant firecracking after 500 rounds. Both of these guns fire 95 grains of powder. How do you expect a round that has <font color="red">50% more capacity to get 100% more barrel life?! </font> There is something else you guys need to research. It's called expansion ratios. In other words, how much weight of a solid can turn into a volume of gas and be pushed down a hole and how long is that hole. The higher the ratio number the better. You can pretty effectively guess the barrel life of a cartridge by running the ratio and the cartridge you are shooting there is WAAAAY under the number 10 which is considered "not very good". Knowing this, you would think I would recommend "shoot that cornmeal by all means to save that barrel" but I actually say the opposite. But what the hell do I know?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="goodgrouper, post: 149169, member: 2852"] [b]Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"[/b] Lerch and Bill, You guys crack me up. You can't honestly believe I'm the only one on earth that doesn't like the idea of abrasive material flying down a soft stainless steel barrel at over the speed of sound. As with any debate, those that support the "non-popular" view do not always chime in because of the fear of confrontation. Well, I'm obviously supporting the non-popular view against a few guys who either can't admit or won't admit that they might be doing something that can hurt their expensive toys. Perhaps it is a defense mechanism. But I will have you know, I have recieved 4 emails from fellas in the last 2 days saying that they tried cormeal fireforming with horrific results, or they were told not to by their gunsmiths or barrel makers. They simply didn't want to post here because they would obviously be the underdog to this crowd. Well, I don't care now or will ever care if I am the underdog. I know what I know and I've seen what I've seen and I will not be made to look like I'm the only one around who doesn't agree with your breakfast blasting. Perhaps you should do some research before you label me as a lunatic. THus far, you are riding on the sole opinion of two gunsmiths (who I respect also) who both admit that firing cornmeal would be best done in a scrap barrel. I have done the research and was just putting it out there to help cause I thought we were pals and you guys cop an attitude and act like your metallurgists or something. You guys have ONE gun of which you have yet to fire with real bullets. Kirby has one 338 and has had some fantastic results no doubt, but he has less than 300 rounds through it so I wouldn't say that is exactly a lot of info to go on. No doubt it shoots good, but I never said a breakfast blasted barrel wouldn't shoot good. I simply said that it is abrasive and can reduce barrel life and harm barrels. I AM NOT ALONE ON THIS! Do some reading, attend some br matches, ask some barrel mfctrs, quiz a few gunsmiths and you'll find out that not everyone will recommend fireforming with cormeal. Of the ones who do use it, the majority of them are [i]using it in takeoff barrels only, not in their competetion barrels.[/i] Of the particular barrels I saw that had been fireformed in this manner, they looked like they had scratched and rounded off the edge of the rifling for a few inches in front of the throat and again at the muzzle. I am not making this up! Now I have no doubt that Kirby has experimented with this in his big case and it very well may be the only way to get the cases fireformed in this particular caliber. If he feels it is best than it must be. I never said that it wouldn't fireform the cases or make anything not shoot as good. I said that it will affect the condition of the barrel. I may have exaggerated the half barrel life thing, but maybe not. It could be more, could be less. You might not even notice a difference in accuracy while the barrel is new. Anyhow, I'm done debating this. I really don't care one way or another if you believe me or not but at least do some research and ask some more questions before you single a guy out as "nit-picky", "crazy" or "over-exaggerative" just because he presents a different view of the world. Remember, I have been around this block a few times myself and I have put more rounds down two custom 338 wildcats than yourselves or Kirby. I deal with firearms everyday and I'm not talking about sitting in a gun shop selling them. I use them and work on them everyday and have probably turned more guns into 1k shooters than most guys ever imagine. In this process, I have learned a thing or two and I get an interesting perspective on things that most people will never be in a position to learn. It is from this that I try to give a tidbit of advice to help a brother out once in awhile and I speak my mind when others are afraid to. Those are my faults. Being a liar or not a straight-shooter are not. Oh, and one last thing before I step down from this soapbox: You state this gun "only has 1000 rounds of barrel life so why waste them". Well, consider this: The 338 lapua improved shooting 300 grain mk's wore out a barrel in less than 300 rounds. By wore out I mean firecracked the hell out of the first three inches of throat so bad that it took a full day to clean the pig and it degraded the bc of the bullet a full point. A 338 ultra mag improved shooting 225 grain bullets has significant firecracking after 500 rounds. Both of these guns fire 95 grains of powder. How do you expect a round that has <font color="red">50% more capacity to get 100% more barrel life?! </font> There is something else you guys need to research. It's called expansion ratios. In other words, how much weight of a solid can turn into a volume of gas and be pushed down a hole and how long is that hole. The higher the ratio number the better. You can pretty effectively guess the barrel life of a cartridge by running the ratio and the cartridge you are shooting there is WAAAAY under the number 10 which is considered "not very good". Knowing this, you would think I would recommend "shoot that cornmeal by all means to save that barrel" but I actually say the opposite. But what the hell do I know? [/QUOTE]
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Bill & Lerch's "APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag"
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