Bill & Lerch's "APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag"
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davewilson
Well-Known Member
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"
that's one heck of a rifle. i'd love to have one but i don't think it would be safe to shoot here.our little mountains aren't big enough to stop it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
i hope you bust the 32xx mark!
that's one heck of a rifle. i'd love to have one but i don't think it would be safe to shoot here.our little mountains aren't big enough to stop it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
i hope you bust the 32xx mark!
Quarterbore
Well-Known Member
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"
looks awesome, but maybe she needs a monster bolt too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
looks awesome, but maybe she needs a monster bolt too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"
Looks great guys! I know how much pain you've been going through the last few days and I remember how much fun it was opening the package that contained the MOAG. We couldn't open the box fast enough! But it was only 52# /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif so the box wasn't quite as big. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
So, I didn't see a rest in the pics. What are you guys planning on using?
I did see a stack o' black triangle boxes in the background of one pic. WOW. There is more money sitting there than on that rifle cradle!!!!
Kirby,
I noticed you didn't use a barrel block on this beast and didn't bed the barrel the full length of the channel. Does the Bat 10" need a block or not? Bill Shehane told us that the 8" Bat on the MOAG needed a block because it would flex just enough without it that it might give vertical. What you think?
Looks great guys! I know how much pain you've been going through the last few days and I remember how much fun it was opening the package that contained the MOAG. We couldn't open the box fast enough! But it was only 52# /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif so the box wasn't quite as big. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
So, I didn't see a rest in the pics. What are you guys planning on using?
I did see a stack o' black triangle boxes in the background of one pic. WOW. There is more money sitting there than on that rifle cradle!!!!
Kirby,
I noticed you didn't use a barrel block on this beast and didn't bed the barrel the full length of the channel. Does the Bat 10" need a block or not? Bill Shehane told us that the 8" Bat on the MOAG needed a block because it would flex just enough without it that it might give vertical. What you think?
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"
Sorry to make another post. I should have included this in the last post.
You guys are talking about fireforming with cornmeal. I don't want to sound like a killjoy, but I would highly recommend against that. I mean no disrespect at all, but this is not a good idea. For the price of some junk bullets to use for fireforming, it still beats using cornmeal to "beadblast" your throat. I have seen what cornmeal does to throats under a borescope and it was ugly and that was on a case shooting less than 30 grains of powder not over 100 grains.
Remember, copper is a guilding metal and in and of itself does not harm barrels. That is one of the reasons why we use it. Cornmeal can be effectively used as media in a beadblaster machine. I have one friend who used it to mediablast his roll cage on his hot rod before powder coating! This is what you're doing to your throat only instead of sending cornmeal across a part at 300 fps, you are sending down the barrel at over 1000 fps! For the price of some junk 338 bullets, it is minuscule compared to the cost of all that beautiful machine work and huge barrel.
Heck, I've got some extra 300 grain MK's laying around that I'll never use because they were out of spec bearing surface wise and you guys are more than welcome to them. I would even pay to ship them to you just so I could sleep easy knowing copper was going down that awesome barrel instead of cornmeal!
Sorry to make another post. I should have included this in the last post.
You guys are talking about fireforming with cornmeal. I don't want to sound like a killjoy, but I would highly recommend against that. I mean no disrespect at all, but this is not a good idea. For the price of some junk bullets to use for fireforming, it still beats using cornmeal to "beadblast" your throat. I have seen what cornmeal does to throats under a borescope and it was ugly and that was on a case shooting less than 30 grains of powder not over 100 grains.
Remember, copper is a guilding metal and in and of itself does not harm barrels. That is one of the reasons why we use it. Cornmeal can be effectively used as media in a beadblaster machine. I have one friend who used it to mediablast his roll cage on his hot rod before powder coating! This is what you're doing to your throat only instead of sending cornmeal across a part at 300 fps, you are sending down the barrel at over 1000 fps! For the price of some junk 338 bullets, it is minuscule compared to the cost of all that beautiful machine work and huge barrel.
Heck, I've got some extra 300 grain MK's laying around that I'll never use because they were out of spec bearing surface wise and you guys are more than welcome to them. I would even pay to ship them to you just so I could sleep easy knowing copper was going down that awesome barrel instead of cornmeal!
redbone
Well-Known Member
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"
Bill
when are you going to shoot the rifle ?
Have you gave the rifle an name yet ?
Redbone
Bill
when are you going to shoot the rifle ?
Have you gave the rifle an name yet ?
Redbone
lerch
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"
We have a 1K benchrest shoot the weekend after next and we are both preparing for it so shooting the big thing will be held off for a little bit.
No real name just yet, any suggestions????
steve
We have a 1K benchrest shoot the weekend after next and we are both preparing for it so shooting the big thing will be held off for a little bit.
No real name just yet, any suggestions????
steve
lerch
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"
[ QUOTE ]
Hope you guys can bust the 2k mark
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually we are going for the 3K mark!!!!! well just see if we get there or not!!!
[ QUOTE ]
Hope you guys can bust the 2k mark
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually we are going for the 3K mark!!!!! well just see if we get there or not!!!
bailey1474
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe??
[/ QUOTE ]
It seems that you are on to us!!
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe??
[/ QUOTE ]
It seems that you are on to us!!
lerch
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"
If i remember correctly Speedy of SG&Y fame uses the cornmeal method for most of his fireforming. We are just trying to maximise bbl life and the idea of having 200 rnds of already short bbl life being dedicated to fireforming loads doesnt sit well. Plus the cornmeal loads only have 30grs of shotshell powder while a standard bullet fireforming load will use somewhere over 100grs of rifle powder.
I am open to all ideas, i want this baby to last as long as possible
steve
If i remember correctly Speedy of SG&Y fame uses the cornmeal method for most of his fireforming. We are just trying to maximise bbl life and the idea of having 200 rnds of already short bbl life being dedicated to fireforming loads doesnt sit well. Plus the cornmeal loads only have 30grs of shotshell powder while a standard bullet fireforming load will use somewhere over 100grs of rifle powder.
I am open to all ideas, i want this baby to last as long as possible
steve
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"
[ QUOTE ]
If i remember correctly Speedy of SG&Y fame uses the cornmeal method for most of his fireforming.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but he fireforms down a takeoff barrel that is used solely for that purpose. He does not fire cornmeal down his comp barrels. And even if he did, he is still human and can do dumb things.
[ QUOTE ]
We are just trying to maximise bbl life and the idea of having 200 rnds of already short bbl life being dedicated to fireforming loads doesnt sit well.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was my whole point. You think you are saving your barrel and in fact you are cutting it's life in half! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Plus the cornmeal loads only have 30grs of shotshell powder while a standard bullet fireforming load will use somewhere over 100grs of rifle powder.
[/ QUOTE ]
It wouldn't matter if you fire 10 grains of powder for the cornmeal. Think about this a minute. You would still be propelling it over 1000 fps down your barrel-- nearly triple the speed of a sandblast machine!!
I mean no disrespect to anyone if they use this method, but sit back, relax, and think about this rationally. Firing a hard, super abrasive material down a barrel at nearly the speed of sound can't be good no matter how much money you think you're saving.
I'm just trying to help a buddy out here. I know how fleeting your barrel life is going to be already (from experience not armchair theory) and everything you do from shot one to shot whatever is going to be important. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
[ QUOTE ]
If i remember correctly Speedy of SG&Y fame uses the cornmeal method for most of his fireforming.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but he fireforms down a takeoff barrel that is used solely for that purpose. He does not fire cornmeal down his comp barrels. And even if he did, he is still human and can do dumb things.
[ QUOTE ]
We are just trying to maximise bbl life and the idea of having 200 rnds of already short bbl life being dedicated to fireforming loads doesnt sit well.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was my whole point. You think you are saving your barrel and in fact you are cutting it's life in half! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Plus the cornmeal loads only have 30grs of shotshell powder while a standard bullet fireforming load will use somewhere over 100grs of rifle powder.
[/ QUOTE ]
It wouldn't matter if you fire 10 grains of powder for the cornmeal. Think about this a minute. You would still be propelling it over 1000 fps down your barrel-- nearly triple the speed of a sandblast machine!!
I mean no disrespect to anyone if they use this method, but sit back, relax, and think about this rationally. Firing a hard, super abrasive material down a barrel at nearly the speed of sound can't be good no matter how much money you think you're saving.
I'm just trying to help a buddy out here. I know how fleeting your barrel life is going to be already (from experience not armchair theory) and everything you do from shot one to shot whatever is going to be important. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
lerch
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"
Well if i use the bullet method then i have well over 100grs of rifle powder being blasted into the throat at amazing speeds dont I??????? I see where you are coming from but in my mind i just keep saying dude its only cornmeal
well see what the experts have to say on the subject
steve
Well if i use the bullet method then i have well over 100grs of rifle powder being blasted into the throat at amazing speeds dont I??????? I see where you are coming from but in my mind i just keep saying dude its only cornmeal
well see what the experts have to say on the subject
steve
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Re: Bill & Lerch\'s \"APS Xtreme Range 338 Allen Mag\"
Goodgrouper,
This is the BAT 2"x 10" not the 8.5" that you used on the MOAGs. It has a huge thread length and Bruce at BAT said it would handle a 40" 1.750" diameter straight cylinder barrel.
That is what I have on my Black Sunshine, totally freefloated and have never had any problems at all with consistancy.
On Steve and Lerches rifle, I bedded the first 7-8 " of barrel just because I was hanging extra weight off the muzzle with the brake. Probably do not need it but I see no reason why this will effect anything in a bad way consistancy wise and just offer a bit of support to the barrel. It is bedded stress free so no upward pressure at all, just static.
As far as fireforming with cornmeal. You may have something to what your saying but I have never seen this under a bore scope. None of my barrels have shown any sign of excessive wear fireforming with corn meal and that includes my 270 AM and 7mm AMs.
Remember that plain corn meal is made from the corn itself. The polishing media is made from corn cobb and is much different in its abrasive qualities.
Another issue, trying to get a 338-408 CT to fireform with anything but full pressure loads or **** near it will result in pressure dents just below the shoulder. I have seen these even with loads up to within a few grains under normal working loads with the 300 gr SMK.
The corn meal physically pushed the shoulder out before the hot gases even get near the case mouth. That is why it works so well.
With live fire fireforming loads, it is nearly impossible to get pressures high enough , quickly enough to prevent these pressure dents. Believe me I have tried. Even used MUCH faster powders and lighter bullets. When you have 155 grains of usible powder capacity, live fire fireforming has many problems and is not very practical.
I do hear what you are saying on the bead blasting effect of corn meal and there may be some potential there but I have never seen it in my rifles. These are not rifles where you will be fireforming 100 rounds of brass all at once. At least that is not my design purpose. 50 max is plenty.
I have seen more throat wear from excessive cleaning with harsh copper removing compounds during barrel break in then anything else. In fact I have witnessed at least two barrels that I suspect were soiled by some of the new wonder copper cleaners at no fault of the rifles owner, just bad products that have not been tested enough to have a good track record.
Anyway, from my borescope inspections of my own personal barrels, I have never seen a problem with corn meal fireforming and in the case of the 338 rounds based off the 408, it is nearly a nessesity to get quality formed cases, just a different beast them pretty much anything else out there and has some special needs to form cases.
No offense taken in any way, just in the case of the 338 AM, live fire fireforming is not the best method from all the testing I have done.
To that end, I am in the process of setting up for forming cases. If this works out, I may be able to supply cases for my 338 AM wildcat to my customers. Still in the beginning stages of planning but I think it will happen by the end of this summer.
May also offer formed cases for my other rounds as well but the 338 AM will be the first to be offered if this works as expected.
Take care,
Kirby Allen(50)
Goodgrouper,
This is the BAT 2"x 10" not the 8.5" that you used on the MOAGs. It has a huge thread length and Bruce at BAT said it would handle a 40" 1.750" diameter straight cylinder barrel.
That is what I have on my Black Sunshine, totally freefloated and have never had any problems at all with consistancy.
On Steve and Lerches rifle, I bedded the first 7-8 " of barrel just because I was hanging extra weight off the muzzle with the brake. Probably do not need it but I see no reason why this will effect anything in a bad way consistancy wise and just offer a bit of support to the barrel. It is bedded stress free so no upward pressure at all, just static.
As far as fireforming with cornmeal. You may have something to what your saying but I have never seen this under a bore scope. None of my barrels have shown any sign of excessive wear fireforming with corn meal and that includes my 270 AM and 7mm AMs.
Remember that plain corn meal is made from the corn itself. The polishing media is made from corn cobb and is much different in its abrasive qualities.
Another issue, trying to get a 338-408 CT to fireform with anything but full pressure loads or **** near it will result in pressure dents just below the shoulder. I have seen these even with loads up to within a few grains under normal working loads with the 300 gr SMK.
The corn meal physically pushed the shoulder out before the hot gases even get near the case mouth. That is why it works so well.
With live fire fireforming loads, it is nearly impossible to get pressures high enough , quickly enough to prevent these pressure dents. Believe me I have tried. Even used MUCH faster powders and lighter bullets. When you have 155 grains of usible powder capacity, live fire fireforming has many problems and is not very practical.
I do hear what you are saying on the bead blasting effect of corn meal and there may be some potential there but I have never seen it in my rifles. These are not rifles where you will be fireforming 100 rounds of brass all at once. At least that is not my design purpose. 50 max is plenty.
I have seen more throat wear from excessive cleaning with harsh copper removing compounds during barrel break in then anything else. In fact I have witnessed at least two barrels that I suspect were soiled by some of the new wonder copper cleaners at no fault of the rifles owner, just bad products that have not been tested enough to have a good track record.
Anyway, from my borescope inspections of my own personal barrels, I have never seen a problem with corn meal fireforming and in the case of the 338 rounds based off the 408, it is nearly a nessesity to get quality formed cases, just a different beast them pretty much anything else out there and has some special needs to form cases.
No offense taken in any way, just in the case of the 338 AM, live fire fireforming is not the best method from all the testing I have done.
To that end, I am in the process of setting up for forming cases. If this works out, I may be able to supply cases for my 338 AM wildcat to my customers. Still in the beginning stages of planning but I think it will happen by the end of this summer.
May also offer formed cases for my other rounds as well but the 338 AM will be the first to be offered if this works as expected.
Take care,
Kirby Allen(50)
