Best approach for consistent bullet release

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by AZShooter, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. AZShooter

    AZShooter Well-Known Member

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    A friend and I have had a running conversation regarding how to best approach consistent bullet release.
    Dan shoots 1000 BR and is very meticulous as to how he approaches case prep. We both agree that consistent bullet release is part of the equation for low ES and subsequent tight groups. He believes that leaving residue in the necks of fired brass is the best approach. He thinks sonic cleaning, tumbling or even using a bore brush in the necks is a bad idea. He sizes using a S bushing die and doesn't do anything about the residue inside the necks.

    He is about to anneal his brass and says he will have to fire every case once to coat the necks with powder residue before using them in a match.

    I argue that if the necks are clean by using a sonic cleaner or after annealing there is no need to shoot each piece of brass to coat the neck walls. Dan argues that super clean brass is bad for consistent bullet release. I realize that the load might have to be tweaked because of the increased friction but I think that a clean neck vs a fouled neck would cause no difference in potential accuracy.

    What about running a bore brush into the necks to remove excess residue? What about tumbling brass? Wouldn't these methods also result in consistent bullet release?

    I think you get the idea. Obviously this is not something most of us worry over with our hunting rifles. Maybe we should? Consistency is important, which approach is best or does it matter? Would love to hear your ideas.
     
  2. Joe King

    Joe King Well-Known Member

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    yes it's true benchresters get really friggin weird about minute details.........

    The question for most of us is "does it matter enough to worry about?" I'm not a benchrester the only support I ever use at all is bipods, that includes off the bench, So I doubt that if it makes a difference that I would ever be able to quantify it over environmental factors. I never worried about it, they get as clean as my tumbler gets em, I don't ever brush the inside either never have.
     

  3. AZShooter

    AZShooter Well-Known Member

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    I tumble all my hunting brass. For a while I tried running a brush in the 30 BR brass necks with no tumbling then going to the S bushing. Have tumbled the 30 BR brass and couldn't see a difference but I am not shooting for tiny groups at 1000 yd either.
     
  4. sean1

    sean1 Well-Known Member

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    I probably should not get into this since I don't have near the knowledge as the rest of you do , but would it be possible to clean the necks and apply a very small amount of lube to get a more consistent release. Nothing that would foul the barrel but something like a smear of case lube on the bullet before seating? Forgive me if this is totally crazy. Just seemed like a possibility.
     
  5. Joe King

    Joe King Well-Known Member

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    sean I thought about that years ago, but I never tried over concerns of contaminating my powder. But like everything else in this game I imagine the best answer would be "depends" with so many tiny variables in barrels alone I can see it working for some rifles but not all. Now that I think of it seems that's kind of what bullet coatings do before the bullet ever touches the lands.
     
  6. AZShooter

    AZShooter Well-Known Member

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    We did talk about coatings and using sonically cleaned brass but it was dismissed, not wanted in bore.

    Meanwhile IIRC John Lazzaroni uses a locktite product with ammo that uses the lazerhead bullets. The NP3 coated bullets are so slippery recoil would move them around.
     
  7. g0rd0

    g0rd0 Well-Known Member

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    Assumeing that you are bench resting and not hunting I think that you are neck siseing not crimping, cleaned, trimmed and sorted your brass by brand, weight and thickness at the neck.
    Every powder charge is inividually wieghted and that your over all length is correct so that the rnds are .010" longer than your chamber so that when you chamber the rnd it is seated firmly against the rifleing. If so, one would think that each shot will have the same preasure build when it starts its jorney down the barrel
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
  8. dennisinaz

    dennisinaz Member

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    I run a phosphor bronze brush, powered by a drill motor into every neck before resizing. I don't want that crap in my die. I lightly lube my VLD bullets with wax before seating them. As long as I anneal on a consistent basis, I get very consistent bullet pull.

    Neck clearance needs to be adequate (I feel .003" total at a minimum). An easier way is to use coated bullets. I mostly use Norma Diamond line in my 6.5-284 and bullet pull is very consistent.
     
  9. drbill

    drbill Well-Known Member

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    I have used powdered graphite on inside neck and on bullets before but maybe I shouldn't. Also I have heard of using small amount of sizing wax on bullet but don't you want to be careful with that to prevent powder contamination. I have never tried it though.

    Also doesn't K & M make an arbor press with pressure measurement so those fancy benchrest guys can see on a dial indicator how much force the bullet takes to seat in the brass? Then couldn't you see the pressure it takes to seat the bullet and have a guess what kind of tension you have in the neck. You could "sort" loads for consistent groups.

    Some guns have "long" chambers and you cant reach the "barrel" to create consistent pressures. I have a couple guns just like that and they can be difficult to work with sometimes. I do know something with these guns people don't want you to blow them up, its hard to get pressures up. I don't blame them they don't want to get sued.

    But we are hunters aren't we? so....

    if you work the brass right shouldn't you have the same neck tension on all the brass anyways. I read somewhere in some Houston warehouse article you could only feel or "work on" that brass that wasn't just right compared to the others. All brass must not work the same or release the same. :rolleyes: I suppose if you tried those fancy benchrest dies you could get a press like that and try.

    I have also heard of guys with big guns just shooting a small amount of brass lots and then kinda figuring out which ones will act "normal" and sorting those "good" ones out and using them. But then you worry about case life etc. But I have heard of guys shooting lots of times with big brass and doing good going a little slower and being "easy" on the brass. I guess that would depend on type of caliber too. Maybe I heard wrong. These are just some ideas.
     
  10. Gene

    Gene Well-Known Member

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    In benchrest, everything needs to be consistent; thats the name of the game. First, turn necks enough to keep a loaded neck about .002-.004" below chamber diameter. Get good equipment, learn to turn necks consistently. Use a tubing micrometer to check neck thickness. Always seat bullets to the same depth. Shoot naked bullets. No residue should be allowed to accumulate in the necks and do not use any compounds to make the necks or bullets release more consistent. I never tumble cases, its not necessary. I do run each fired case thru a nylon brush on my RCBS Chargemaster after each firing. You can see the soot fall out.

    You can compare ES and SD with a chronograph, using various methods of case preparation. This will tell you what works best. I had a K&M belows press, and did not like it. Just measur4 bullet seating by feel.

    Where did you hear this?

    All brass must not work the same or release the same.
     
  11. AZShooter

    AZShooter Well-Known Member

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    A few posters get the question and shared their method, thanks.

    My friend does his brass prep to the nth degree, weighing, neck turning, uniforming primer pockets, deburring flashhole if necessary, chamfering neck, resizing with body bump die by measuring at datum and reducing by .001", using S bushing die to obtain .002" neck tension.

    The question was about the insides of the neck. There is a big diffence in neck friction between annealed and once fired necks with carbon. Just wanted to hear ideas on approachs to deal with this difference.
    Dennis's wax method makes the most sense at this point maybe a thin film of moly rubbed on annealed necks would also work. Problem with these is a consistent amount. Maybe the bullet would displace the material to create same thickness film.
     
  12. drbill

    drbill Well-Known Member

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    I am just guessing? Im no expert. I read some stuff in The Houston Warehouse about seating for feel. So if you can "feel" some different seaters then the brass in my opinion is different adn therefore it worked different. Im no benchrest shooter and im just saying what im thinking.

    Also do you ever on size the neck only where the bullet will be seated?

    Then wouldn't you have less neck to deal with for expansion but you would still have the same neck tension cause the bullet would still be held and you have to only "release" the bullet held portion of the neck. Does that make any sense what im trying to say or does it sound like im babbling?

    Thanks
    Bill
     
  13. rscott5028

    rscott5028 Well-Known Member

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    this has been discussed here and on accurateshooter many times and is worth searching

    I'm not a benchrester

    after many firings, I do sonic clean

    the concern with the bullet and brass being too clean is "cold welding"

    I would stay away from wax on bullets as powder granules will adhere

    normally, I use a nylon brush to remove excess buildup

    I also use redding dry neck lube when resizing and I don't bother to clean it from inside the neck as I figure it helps the bullet seating/consistency

    K&M and others make arbor presses with dial indicators for measuring pressure/consistency

    -- richard
     
  14. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    He's right. Leave the inside of necks alone.


    He's right AND wrong here.
    He should get his neck tension back to load developed tune -before competing with it. He should get his seating friction/forces back to consistent and verify his bullets are in fact seated exactly the same.


    Again, Right AND wrong.
    The only time clean necks affect release is with cold welding(which takes a long time).
    The increased friction from super clean necks affects only seating forces.
    Bullet release is not about neck friction, but of neck expansion(springback).
    It is only springback that grips and releases bullets on firing.
    High friction is useful only if he competes with a loaded magazine under heavy recoil.


    There is no excess residue. This is a truly dreamed up 'problem'.