Berger Bullets

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by robin12, Apr 5, 2012.

  1. robin12

    robin12 Member

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    I am reloading Berger 168 vld's in a Remington 700 7mm.
    the load that is grouping the tightest is.
    66.2 grains of H-1000.
    using a winchester case, CCI BR primer.

    The grouping is 5 shots in a 2x3 square at 100 yards. I know they can get much tighter.

    I am thinking of playing with the lands setting .
    as of right now all the cases are trimmed to 2. 490 and the Coal is 3.290.

    Thanks to the folks at Burger for giving me the reloading stuff.
    If I am wanting to jump into the lands should I shorten the Coal by .10 making the coal 3.280? or do you shorten the case?
     
  2. 6.5Express

    6.5Express Well-Known Member

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    Seat the bullet into the case deeper.
     

  3. kaseyfied

    kaseyfied Well-Known Member

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    seat the bullet further toward the lands like 6.5 said.. you want less jump with the bergers.. I have a 7mm sendero.. great out to 1200 with 68 grains of h1000 with 168 grian berger seated to 3.330.. you mag should be able to do acommendate atleast 3.500 or so.. depends I guess.. you should try and find where you lands are.. with a guage.. that will help you reload with the bergers

    kasey
     
  4. 7stw

    7stw Well-Known Member

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    I am shooting a similar load that yeilds incredible accuracy. My load info is 67.5 - H1000-168 VLD @ 3.336 OAL. Velocity runs at 2977 with SD, and ES very low. Accuracy is typically a ragged hole at 100' and have gotten 1/4 inch groups at 200. I am using Winchester WLR primers, and those are what brought the SD, and ES down. When I developed that load last spring, I had to look around for the sweet spot, and at 3.336, I am about .035 off of the riflings. Using Norma brass, I m getting very good case life. Hope this helps!
     
  5. AZShooter

    AZShooter Well-Known Member

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    There is no hard and fast rule regarding bullet jump or having the bullet engage the rifling. You have a starting point that is all. If you are using the magazine often times that will restrict seating the bullet out of the case and closer to the rifling.

    Berger suggests trying four seating depths which are quite far apart. "Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. (their opinion not mine) Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.

    Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
    1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
    2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
    3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
    4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

    Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
    1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
    2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
    3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
    4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

    Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards). "

    -------------


    I have had good results by seating the bullet closer to rifling I have done so in small increments to see if there is a trend. If possible I like to move in .005" increments.

    If you already have the bullet seated out as far as possible and still fit and feed from a magazine then go the other way. Seat the bullet deeper into the case in .005" increments and note changes. Often a tighter group can be obtained.

    For grins I seated a 308 with 168 sierra matchkings progressively deeper in .002" increments and went past the tightest group. As the bullet was seated deeper the group size opened up then with even more seating it began to tighten up again! Of course you can only go so far in seating deeper into the case but that test proved to me that there can be more than one sweet spot of tightest group size. See pic. Numbers represent setting numbers on my comp die.

    I have used Berger VLDs in a 257 Weatherby and a 7mm RUM with jumps in the .70-200" range with good results. There was no way I could have gotten the bullets any closer to the rifling in these hunting rifles.

    There is an issue in trying a variety of seating depths, repeatability. If you don't have a competition seating die it is going to be difficult but not impossible. You will need a comparator like the one linked to precisely measure ogive to base distance.
    Hornady LNL Comparator Body w/ 14 Inserts - Sinclair Intl

    You will also need to make a dummy round for every seating depth so you can measure from it later to set up the seating die. I have done it both ways and the competition seating die is the way to go IF you intend to keep that chambering. (I often help friends with their loads and no special seating die is available.

    Good luck on finding better groups. Come back and report on your results. Ask more questions, many here are willing to help.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Len Backus

    Len Backus Administrator Staff Member

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    AZ

    Nice helpful post!
     
  7. AZShooter

    AZShooter Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Len.
     
  8. Len Backus

    Len Backus Administrator Staff Member

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    What's your favorite Tucson area Mexican restaurant -- for my next Southwest road trip?? :D
     
  9. AZShooter

    AZShooter Well-Known Member

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    I like the crossroads which is easy to find. Crossroads - South Tucson - Tucson | Urbanspoon

    El Torero is smaller and a bit harder to find and not as visited by tourists. It was one of the first Mexican restaurants I ever visited back in 1973. Hasn't changed. Be sure to get a cheese crisp as a appetizer with a few green chilis and other goodies on it. El Torero Restaurant - Tucson, AZ, 85713 - Citysearch

    El Gorrion is a great place for a lunch. It is a small local eatery. For a time I worked at Pueblo HS across the street. We used to go in there all the time for lunch.
    El Gorrion - Tucson, AZ

    Hopes that helps.

    If you have never had one you need to try a Tucson speciality, the Chimichanga. It is a flour torilla burrito that is deep fried. Get the carne seca and then have it covered with sour cream and guacamole. Yum

    -Ross
     
  10. robin12

    robin12 Member

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    Looks like I am close to the sweet spot. Seems like 66.4 grains and a OAL of 3.368 is getting close. The one in the Middle
     

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  11. rscott5028

    rscott5028 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the latter part of your question was adequately addressed.

    Your case size is important as follows...

    Ideally it has just enough clearance (headspace) to chamber easily/reliably.

    When fired, it expands to fill and seal the chamber while launching the bullet.

    Then, it springs back slightly so that you can extract the spent case.

    When done correctly, full length resizing should bump the shoulder case back about 2-3 thousandths of an inch in order to facillitate easy chambering/extraction in the event things get a little dirty.

    But, you don't want the case expanding and contracting too much or the brass will work harden faster, becoming brittle, and split creating a dangerous situation.

    So, trim to the "trim to" length shown in your loading manual. And adjust the dies according to the die manufacturer's specification. But, don't alter the case dimensions to tune your load. Rather, adjust seating depth as explained by Azshooter.

    Good luck and be safe,
    -- richard
     
  12. Len Backus

    Len Backus Administrator Staff Member

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    Ross, thanks. It's making me hungry, though.
     
  13. robin12

    robin12 Member

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    Thank you.
    All of the cases are the factory length of 2.490. All I did was adjust the seating depth of the bullet to alter the COAL.
     
  14. elkkillinfull

    elkkillinfull Member

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    Try 70.7 grains of H1000 with the OAL 3.420. With CCI 250 primers with the 168 gr berger.