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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets
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<blockquote data-quote="elkaholic" data-source="post: 727909" data-attributes="member: 13833"><p>Just for info: My friend was shooting his new .280 Sherman this fall and asked me for a recommendation on a long range hunting bullet. I told him he might try the 180 vld. He bought a box and had good accuracy right away at 100 yards. He shot a whitetail at 300 yards in the middle of a field (on video). The shock wave was easy to see and the impact on the deer was 2/3 of the way up the rib cage and approx. 10" behind the shoulder. The deer kicked it's hind feet in the air (like they do) and sprinted off accross 200 yards of field into the brush. They were able to find where the deer entered the brush line and tracked it for a ways but only found a couple drops of blood. They searchd the area for two hours and never found the deer. I know that a lot of people have good success with the Bergers and I have as well, but I have also seen and heard about this happening. A non expanded bullet will tumble nearly everytime and that is obviously what happened in this post when you look at the bent tip and the battered sides. In testing we refer to this as a "banana bullet"!</p><p>I have seen this a lot in my bullet testing and have given a lot of thought lately to why some people have such success, and others have this happen. One thing that I know for sure is that a very small meplat needs to have enough of an opening (hollow point) for hydraulic action to occur and expand the bullet unless there is enough resistance and velocity to rip off the tip. Sometimes, depending upon what is hit, this doesn't seem to happen (maybe hair in the tip, etc?)</p><p>Here is another possibility for the tumbling, and non expansion:</p><p>One of the things that makes a Berger work is the fact that the meplat is small allowing it to penetrate a few inches before it often explodes and causes a great deal of trauma inside the animal. What if the bullet just barely clips the side of a rib, on say a deer, but hits the side of the ogive and not the tip. This might happen with less than two inches of penetration on a deers rib cage. The bullet might then deflect sideways and start to tumble BEFORE expansion is initiated. I know there are credible people on this forum that have seen "and experienced" both including myself. You can decide my personal credibility<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big Grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /> Anyway, those are a couple of likely possibilities in my view. A bullet, such as an A-Max, which is constructed and shaped much like a Berger, only with a ballistic tip, will not do that which also makes it less effective at higher velocities because it expands Too quickly. It is more predictable, but not necessarily in a good way. FIRE AWAY!<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big Grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" />.........Rich</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="elkaholic, post: 727909, member: 13833"] Just for info: My friend was shooting his new .280 Sherman this fall and asked me for a recommendation on a long range hunting bullet. I told him he might try the 180 vld. He bought a box and had good accuracy right away at 100 yards. He shot a whitetail at 300 yards in the middle of a field (on video). The shock wave was easy to see and the impact on the deer was 2/3 of the way up the rib cage and approx. 10" behind the shoulder. The deer kicked it's hind feet in the air (like they do) and sprinted off accross 200 yards of field into the brush. They were able to find where the deer entered the brush line and tracked it for a ways but only found a couple drops of blood. They searchd the area for two hours and never found the deer. I know that a lot of people have good success with the Bergers and I have as well, but I have also seen and heard about this happening. A non expanded bullet will tumble nearly everytime and that is obviously what happened in this post when you look at the bent tip and the battered sides. In testing we refer to this as a "banana bullet"! I have seen this a lot in my bullet testing and have given a lot of thought lately to why some people have such success, and others have this happen. One thing that I know for sure is that a very small meplat needs to have enough of an opening (hollow point) for hydraulic action to occur and expand the bullet unless there is enough resistance and velocity to rip off the tip. Sometimes, depending upon what is hit, this doesn't seem to happen (maybe hair in the tip, etc?) Here is another possibility for the tumbling, and non expansion: One of the things that makes a Berger work is the fact that the meplat is small allowing it to penetrate a few inches before it often explodes and causes a great deal of trauma inside the animal. What if the bullet just barely clips the side of a rib, on say a deer, but hits the side of the ogive and not the tip. This might happen with less than two inches of penetration on a deers rib cage. The bullet might then deflect sideways and start to tumble BEFORE expansion is initiated. I know there are credible people on this forum that have seen "and experienced" both including myself. You can decide my personal credibility:D Anyway, those are a couple of likely possibilities in my view. A bullet, such as an A-Max, which is constructed and shaped much like a Berger, only with a ballistic tip, will not do that which also makes it less effective at higher velocities because it expands Too quickly. It is more predictable, but not necessarily in a good way. FIRE AWAY!:D.........Rich [/QUOTE]
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