Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets

[Greyfox]

I have taken eleven deer sized animals with my 6.5x284, loaded with 140 gr Berger hunting VLD's and a couple of 140 JLK's at 2965 fps. I can see no difference between the Bergers and JLK's. Shots were taken from 200 to a max of 998 yards with the majority between 400 and 700 yards. All were broadside shots with the exception of a frontal chest shot on an antelope at 200 yards. A couple were hit through both shoulders, two through the spine, and the balance in the chest in various spots from behind the shoulder to just back of the liver(bad wind read). All dropped where they stood or within a few steps. All except the frontal shot on the antelope had complete penetration with a half inch entrance and a three inch exit hole. Never found the bullet or fragments on the antelope. Probably in the gut. I have shot a lot of animals with various calibers and bullet designs. I personally have never owned a rig that was more accurate than my 6.5x284 with VLD's, and have not had a bullet design that performed better, particularly at the extended ranges. I have had controlled expansion bullets that would not expand at longer ranges. While I was initially skeptical of the VLD design, at least for deer sized game, I'm now a believer.

 

[HntWhtTail]

I have almost concluded my test of 115vlds out of my 25/06 so far I am impressed. my son droped his whitetail at 270 yards entrance a little high in the shouder, bullet is somewhere in the other shoulder( i will look for it tomorrow when I start cutting), insides were unrecognizable. my deer the next morning almost straight on at 103 yards. into the chest cavity spun into off side shoulder must have split in two pieces because 3 ribs on the off side were missing a one inch section again everything in the chest cavity was goo. my deer took two jumps and died on his way to the ground. Had a similar shot years ago with 120 speer sp bt. and ended up following a gut shot deer a long way the bullet pushed its way through to the guts not affecting much of anything in between. FYI pushing the vld's at 3150 fps. I have never seen a deer drop as fast as my sons. nor seen the kind of internal damage to everything little meat lost in the process. I was unsure how they would work I cannot wait to test again next year. As a side note I will most likely not be shooting the 25/06 at elk later this week unless I get a perfect 500 yard shot at a good bull. The 35 whelen AI is better suited. and shoots .4 inch groups at 100 with 3000 +ftlbs behind a 225 nosler partition. Just a better choice imho.

 

[cfvickers]

I have noticed that most Berger detractors are those who either had a bad experience due to a bad choice involving either shot placement, Range or both, or have just never used them and talk about reading more bad than good about them. Where did you look??? I can say that a 130 Berger from a 6.5-284 at 3180fps will kill a white tail from 25 to 325 yards, I have absolutely no doubt that it will do just as well far beyond that but it is my experience. All have been DRT in my personal experience, all had HUGE exit wounds and 6.5mm entrance holes with a little bruise around them as in the previous picture. To the one guy that absolutely had to shoot the elk in the shoulder, what kept you from waiting a few seconds for him to present a rib cage shot? Had you alerted him to your presence? Or were you just too excited to wait? Either way this is the shooter's fault, and we have all been there. If all you had was a gut shot and a TSX would you have taken that as well? Would it have beent he fault of the bullet if you had? We make a choice as to whether we should or should not pull the trigger. maybe had you been shooting a bigger gun penetration would have been better. A TSX in the shoulder at 3200+FPS may have penetrated but still may not have expanded. I have seen this happen. The effectiveness of a partition is unquestionable. But you have the range limitation. A Berger VLD and proper shot placement will work in 98%+ of all cases on just about any HERBIVORE. It will never ever work for me on a large carnivore because I won't shoot a large carnivore with it. P.S. I have made more than my share of poor shot placements but I know it was MY FAULT. But if you guys choose to blame Berger, I am sure there are plenty of us that will keep sending our dollars their way.

 

[sp6x6]

Taken 4 speed goats w/87 gr. 257 out to 600. And only 2 goats and one 6x6 w/300 gr. 338, which blows fist sized holes in game, goats 550-800, bull 50 yrd.

 

[FAL Shot]

The general consensus from a NZ PH that uses the soft target bullets at long ranges is that the A-Max is better than the VLD. A local hunter with lots of experience has used the VLD in his 6.5 Swede from 160 to 475 yards on elk. He has experienced nothing but blowups and pencil holing and will not use Berger VLD for hunting ever again.

Last weekend I took a mule buck just shy of trophy class with a 7mm 162 A-Max in my 7x57mm. At 200 yards, I broke the spine in half just ahead of the shoulders, the bullet was found in the off side under the skin up near the head. Meat loss was minimal. The bullet had 38% weight retention after cleaning and weighing.

The A-Max will open more reliably than a VLD because of the plastic tip that helps start expansion. One trick is to keep the A-Max velocity under 2700 fps if taking close-in shots. Moderate speeds are better than magnum speeds with a soft target type bullet. As velocity decreases, the VLD seems to lose ability to open before the A-Max does.

As far as grizzly country goes, you can load 3 A-Maxs in your magazine then load 2 Partitions on top of that. You will have two Partitions if you meet dangerous game, and you have plenty of time to cycle the two Partitions out and chamber an A-Max or VLD if you get a long shot on nondangerous game.

 

[bigngreen]

The general consensus from a NZ PH that uses the soft target bullets at long ranges is that the A-Max is better than the VLD. A local hunter with lots of experience has used the VLD in his 6.5 Swede from 160 to 475 yards on elk. He has experienced nothing but blowups and pencil holing and will not use Berger VLD for hunting ever again.

Last weekend I took a mule buck just shy of trophy class with a 7mm 162 A-Max in my 7x57mm. At 200 yards, I broke the spine in half just ahead of the shoulders, the bullet was found in the off side under the skin up near the head. Meat loss was minimal. The bullet had 38% weight retention after cleaning and weighing.

The A-Max will open more reliably than a VLD because of the plastic tip that helps start expansion. One trick is to keep the A-Max velocity under 2700 fps if taking close-in shots. Moderate speeds are better than magnum speeds with a soft target type bullet. As velocity decreases, the VLD seems to lose ability to open before the A-Max does.

As far as grizzly country goes, you can load 3 A-Maxs in your magazine then load 2 Partitions on top of that. You will have two Partitions if you meet dangerous game, and you have plenty of time to cycle the two Partitions out and chamber an A-Max or VLD if you get a long shot on nondangerous game.

Really???? The local hunters here are killing the stuffing out of elk with them, maybe you need better local hunters gun)

 

[cfvickers]

If I were hunting in the land of massive carnivores, I believe I would stick to a single bullet plan which I knew would kill any animal encountered. I would hate to know I had two rounds to kill Mr. Bear while I am shaking and firing away and Mr. Bear salivates at the thought of Vickers tartar. I love my Berger Bullets, But the only carnivore I ever MIGHT encounter in my area is a relatively small cougar/Mountain lion. And that is an EXTREMELY slight chance. Our game and fish commission does not even acknowledge they exist here, but a lot of people, myself included, have seen them on rare occasions. Considering I shoot 6.5mm rifles almost exclusively, I would not trust my life with anything less than a bullet proven to penetrate deep AND expand with very near absolute certainty. I haven't the experience to say for sure, but I believe that if confronted with a close in grizzly I would be doing my dead level best to give hime every round available in short time, I want to know that ALL of them are capable of killing him as I am not sure which of them, if any, would land in the right place. This is a situation similar to a cop in a gun fight who is so anxious to put rounds down range that he misses 14 times and hits once. Having not encountered such a situation I have to consider this may be my mindset. There is no time to change your mind or stop and think at that point.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Congrats with the results, but I'll stick to my original statement.

I feel the same,
in 2009 I used a 140/6.5 yellow box match bullet on a whitetail at 419 yards, running it 3200 fps, performance was as it should be, not unlike an accubond.
2010, I shot 2 whitetails with the hunting bullet 140 gr, one was 457 yds, the other 493, neither bullet got into the chest cavity before coming to pieces. a week later took my 12 yo nephew out to shoot a doe, he shot her at 230 yds

all three deer shot had an entrance wound that looked like this, you can see the bullet never really got inside the ribcage intact, only reason we found this one was because we had some snow on the ground, the other 2 were recoverd, one after tracking 1/2 mile, the other a mile and a half, no more bergers for me least not in 6.5. they do however shoot wonderfully accurate, here is my best group shot to date, 3 shots at a lazered 752 yds, just a shame I can't get satisfactory performance on game with them

RR

 

[elkaholic]

RR....that's a mighty impressive group at that range......Rich

 

[winmag]

While I have always shied away from fragnible bullets in favor of tougher bullets, I wouldn't count them out completely. I trust a lot of members here who absolutely swear by Bergers. I have read tons of reviews on them from A+ to F- & while my personal tastes in what a bullet "should do" keep me using my tried & true bullets, ill say I've certainly been tempted to give em a whirl for some WAY out there stuff.
I'm very set in my ways, & don't stray far from my personal experiences when making my mind up weather something is good for me or to never go near it again, but these Bergers have been one of those bullets I want so bad to "write off" as a waste of time for my hunting style, but comments from Roy, Rhian, Broz, & countless others, who's opinion I have come to trust & respect, who sing thier praises, keep me wondering what if, & keep tempting me to try them.

So far I haven't swallowed the bait, as I'm so in love with my Accubonds in everything I load them in, but I'm gettin the itch to try em in my 300 Wby.
210 gr of bullet should be enough lead to keep some going thru the vitals, even if they do grenade upon impact.
I dunno. I trust too many people who swear by em to give up on them before I try them, but stacked up next to Accubonds... I'm very sceptical to say the least. Who knows, I may be a Berger beliver..... Time will tell....

 

[sp6x6]

I have shot all types of bullets over the years, and favor a premium type in smaller calibers, grand slams and partitions in past to barnes and accubonds now. But my 338Norma loves the berger and it is working so far and at 300 gr. it is hard to compare to smaller calibers. I shot 225 partitions out of my 340 wm for years w/good results, I favor 338 as I am primary elk, muley hunt, lost of miles in grizz area

 

[timmay]

I dont understand why everyone is praising the berger bullet that explodes for a hunting bullet? Why would anybody want a bullet to fragment upon impact and not penetrate very well along with a hundred pieces of fragments tearing through all directions?
Sounds like a great target or a man killer, but a very bad game round

 

[elkaholic]

I dont understand why everyone is praising the berger bullet that explodes for a hunting bullet? Why would anybody want a bullet to fragment upon impact and not penetrate very well along with a hundred pieces of fragments tearing through all directions?
Sounds like a great target or a man killer, but a very bad game round

Not trying to be wise guy, but have you shot anything with them?........Rich

 

[cfvickers]

I dont understand why everyone is praising the berger bullet that explodes for a hunting bullet? Why would anybody want a bullet to fragment upon impact and not penetrate very well along with a hundred pieces of fragments tearing through all directions?
Sounds like a great target or a man killer, but a very bad game round

I am guessing you don't understand why because you have the concept of what it does all wrong in your thinking. It is intended to penetrate to the vitals THEN explode. Not upon impact. I have shot a few deer with them and they did exactly what they said they would in my experience. But all have exited for me. I will say they tend to make huge exit wounds, but the deer tend to fall DRT in absolutely spectacular fashion. Certainly not a pretty death for the animal but have all been nearly as humane as any brain shot. Walking deer normally go nose first into the dirt.