Berger Bullets - I'm Calling You Out

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by azsugarbear, Dec 30, 2010.

  1. azsugarbear

    azsugarbear Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,150
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    :) OK Eric, so here's the deal:

    Beger Bullets makes a great long distance bullet (G1 BC of .6xx or better) for the .264 caliber, the .284 caliber, the .308 caliber, etc.

    But how come the best Berger can do for us .277 guys is a 150 gr. bullet with a BC of .531 ???? If you can develop a 180 gr. bullet for the .284, then surely you should be able to do something in the 165 gr. to 170 gr. range with a .6xx G1 BC for us slightly off-plumb guys that shoot a 277 WSM, SAUM, Allen Magnum, etc. The 150 gr. just don't "gitt'er done"!

    I know there may not be a lot of us, but surely we have waited our turn patiently while Berger has developed so many other great bullets over the past 5 years. How about it, is there any hope on the horizon for us?
     
  2. bigngreen

    bigngreen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,840
    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2008
    I've wore out Bryan on this and I'm sure others as well, the problem is what the standard common twist rate for a 270 anything, 1-10! If someone would have got a 1-9 or 1-8 going early on we would be GTG. If a large 270 would become "in vogue" for BR or some shooting discipline other than knocking down big game then I'm sure it would be financially viable and we would see more. I keep seeing more barrel makers showing a 1-9 or 1-8 twist which will help!!

    I think this spring and summer we will so some solutions from some guys, royinidaho is working on a great solution that I'm optimistic will give us some good LR bullets, I really want to see Wildcat bullets crank on some 169.5's, and a new one that Bryan Litz threw out there is Matrix Ballistics, they are just getting some 165's and 175's worked out. We very well could have four or five bullets that I know of with a BC in the mid .600 to mid .700.
     

  3. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

    Messages:
    5,085
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2001
    Also a scarcity of good 257 bullets. I shoot the 130 gr Wildcat RBBT and it will do a good job on an elk. They are made with Berger J4 jackets. Of course it took me a year and a half to get a 1-8 twist 257 barrel made.

    A 257 Wby really looks good with a long barrel, fast twist, and extra heavy, high BC bullet. The Wildcat 257 bullets were originally designed for the 257 Allen Mag but will work with the 257 STW as well.
     
  4. 270 lefty

    270 lefty Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    166
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2009
    I have just recieved word from Paul @ wildcat he has the 270 issiue worked out and has hired some help and in a couple three months should have some 169.5's ready to go . also the Matrix boys should have the 165 next month and 175 shortly there after Matrix sent me some 165's they look to have a 13 caliber ogive very sleek Ive loaded some up to shoot out of my 270 amp this saturday to see how they fly that is if the 5 degree weather pridiction is not accurate.And if my DWR officer buddy comes through I plan to let him try them on some deer management to see how they do on game but don't know if that will happen or not?
     
  5. bigngreen

    bigngreen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,840
    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2008
    I recieved a box of Matrix 165's yesterday but I have to be at a wedding this weekend so I can't give them a try yet. Initial out of the box impressions are good, I have three barrels to shoot them out of from 11,10 and 9 twist I really only hope for the 9 twist to stabilize them but I may have to get a 1-8 in the works. It will be interesting to see what they do on game, just looking at it they should react like the Bergers.
    It sounds like Paul is maybe making some progress, I try not to pester him to much asking about the 169.5's, they'll come when they come.
     
  6. roninflag

    roninflag Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,226
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    AZ- what twist is your .277 barrel?
     
  7. azsugarbear

    azsugarbear Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,150
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    My barrel is one of the early Lilja's with a 3 groove, 1-in-8 twist that tends to eat the 195's after about 400 rounds down the tube. Just too much bearing surface I guess. It was able to stabilize the 195's as long as they held together.
     
  8. AZShooter

    AZShooter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,075
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Azsugarbear,

    Join the club. Fast twist combined with 3 grooves eat bullets once the throat gets worn. A buddy made a 7 STW 1 in 7 twist 3 groove that ate the 180 Berger VLD hunting bullets at round count 190. My 7 rem mag 1 in 7 ate them at round count 225 during a deer hunt! Monos and bonded bullets will still work but BC is much lower.

    You could get some Cutting edge monos for your fast twisted 270. They offer a VLD hunting bullet with a BC of .540

    Cutting Edge Bullets
     
  9. BryanLitz

    BryanLitz <b>Official LRH Sponsor</b>

    Messages:
    633
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2007
    Sugar,

    The guys did a great job answering your question in the first few posts. Primarily it comes down to available twist rates. It's very difficult for a company to justify putting a bullet out there that only works in 0.5% of barrels.

    Now I'll turn the tables on you :)

    Why insist on shooting a .270 when there are such great bullets in .264 (only 0.013" smaller) or .284 (only 0.007" bigger)? Realize that a 7mm barrel has bore/groove dimensions of .277"/.284" so the difference between the calibers is literally the height of the riflings.

    There is no shortage of high quality components for a wide range of high performing 7mm chamberings.

    -Bryan
     
  10. dodgefan

    dodgefan Active Member

    Messages:
    40
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2010
    Bryan you are definitely correct in the logical choice being a 7mm or a 6.5mm , but who wants to be logical all the time? :)
    It kind of like the the chicken and the egg thing. Which came first? Hardly any one make's the right bullets so most barrel makers don't make the twists needed. I for one am waiting on heavy .257 cal bullets to bridge that "huge" gap between .243 and .264.
     
  11. azsugarbear

    azsugarbear Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,150
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Bryan,

    Thank you in advance for allowing yourself to get sucked into a pointless debate on caliber choice! While I fully understand your argument when it comes to the 277 caliber, logic has no place in this debate. :) If logic ruled, then the 270 Winchester should have died out years ago.

    The simple fact is: I wanted an Allen Magnum and this one came up for sale on LRH. I would have preferred a 7mm AM, but this used rifle was too good of a deal to pass up. It never even crossed my mind that the one bullet maker for my caliber would cease making the bullet I needed.

    I fully understand the business side of Berger's decision. I've got the same dollar signs on my side of the economic equation. When it costs $700 - $800 to rebarrel (custom fluted barrel + smithing + decent brake) and then new dies, brass, etc., switching calibers becomes a major decision. Especially if you only have 400 shots down the 277 tube you currently have on the gun.

    In the end, I'm just growing impatient for some projectiles to shoot and poking someone else with a cattle prod always seems to make me feel better about my own situation. I just knew that the people at Berger Bullets would step forward and help out - even if only to provide a friendly target for my frustration. Many thanks for the response Bryan, and Happy New Year to everyone on this thread.
     
  12. LongBomber

    LongBomber Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    236
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    I like berger's as well and they are great in my 338edge, but you should look at matrix bullets as they make a high BC .277. The market for high BC 277 is just not there. Most that have 277 are diehard hunters and not into the long range hunting/shooting, and that limits the market even more. That said I am in the middle of building a 270-243wssm with a 9twist, not really for the LR stuff but I might give the matrix a try.
     
  13. azsugarbear

    azsugarbear Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,150
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Thanks for the idea. I did pick up on the name in bigngreen's post earlier in this thread. I have already been in contact with Marshal over at Matrix and he will be sending me some 175's next week to try out. I'll make sure and post my results here when I have had the opportunity to shoot them.
     
  14. jwp475

    jwp475 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,595
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Get away from that 3 groove next time and you'll have better luck