Barrel block question

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by vinny, Dec 2, 2007.

  1. vinny

    vinny Member

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    Hi guys
    I'm new to this forum and I'm looking for opinions on using a barrel block/or not on a 34" 1.45 krieger screwed to a 10" bat on a Mcmillan 50 HBR stock chambered in a .338 Lapua Improved. I would like to use the rifle not so much as a competitive HG but as a boulder plinker in VT. I have a home in northern VT and behind the house are 3 flat faced rock drops ranging 1250 1500 and 1800 yards roughly. I want to shoot at them and also would like to use it to hunt a couple of very long clear cuts just north of the house. I have three real nice areas where I can tuck into some soft wood and set up a portable bench I bought from a gentlemen named Stukey. Bat said it would be marginal in re: to the block. Any of your opinions would be greatly appreciated.
    Vinny
     
  2. uncleB

    uncleB Well-Known Member

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    I have nearly an identical rifle that does have a 9" barrel block. my barrel was 36" but the throat seemed to firecrack prematurely, leaving me and others to speculate the worth of a barrel block.
    A gunsmith on this site (Fiftydriver) has built similar rifles with no block.
    BAT claims their actions are strong enough that it is not necessary.
    At the very least you would need a very strong bedding job.
    UB
     
  3. ewallace

    ewallace Well-Known Member

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    I have a couple 338 Lapua imp rifles one with a 10" Bat actions and a 34" 1.450 barrel the black one in the pic http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/nawakwawallace/338s.jpg?t=1196631039
    The barrel is tapered and It shoots good I also have one with a 10" bat that has a block, the aluminum stocked one it has a 1.400 barrel no taper 32" long and also shoots good.
    The other one in the pic is my LG 17 pounds I used it for a deer at 2042 yards and a couple elk at long range.
    I think you would be ok either way but if you go with out a block I would put a taper on the barrel.
     
  4. vinny

    vinny Member

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    UncleB
    Could you explain to me "throat seemed to firecrack prematurely, leaving me and others to speculate the worth of a barrel block". How would a block effect firecracking, I don't undertsand?
    ewallace
    Thats Bruces rest system and if I'm not mistaken it looks like his HG stock. Those are Beautiful rifles! The second gun, thumb hole stock looks just like mine only a different color mine is chambered in a 308 Baer. How did you attach the bipod to the bottom of the flat?
    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2007
  5. Wild_Bill

    Wild_Bill Well-Known Member

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    use a block

    hi I have a riflw with a custom alloy stock and the block is part of the stock and it is awsome I made the stock for F Class and the block is only 4"long but the barrel is also only a #7 profile with 6 of knox.

    Cheers Bill
    Australia
     
  6. ewallace

    ewallace Well-Known Member

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    You are correct it is a Bear HG aluminum stock and the LG is also a Bear stock. I just use a long sling stud and a lot of torque on the clamping mechanism on the bipod. I have a 30 Nawakwa barrel for the LG it is based on the 338 LM shortened and imp, and 2 6.5/284 barrels and a (375/408CT barrel not here yet) for the HG

    pics of cases
    http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/nawakwawallace/4690DSC00608.jpg?t=1196694668
     
  7. Steve Shelp

    Steve Shelp Well-Known Member

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    Vinny,
    I've been around the long range competition game for quite awhile. I have shot and own all 3 bedding methods (split block, glued sleeve, and std barrel floating) and knowing your application of primarily for hunting at a much slower rate of fire you will never be able to tell the difference in the bedding method. So I would go with the std method knowing you are using the 2"x10" BAT action. My current HG is setup just this way. I use to shoot a 338 Yogi with a 1.850" dia x 32" untapered barrel bedded this way on my BAT 2x10 action without a problem.

    Each different method simply gives you different tuning nodes. When you tune to that node they all work. When your not tuned none of them are worth a hill of beans. There are theories about which are easier to tune up... but nobody could shoot enough ammo to statisically prove or disprove the theories anyway. So it all boils down to opinion and speculation.

    But one important point that ewallace has already pointed out is putting a taper on the barrel. All my competition guns have tapers on them now and I won't build one without it going forward. I've seen enough data from the short range and long range BR game to say this is a benefit.
    But the advantage of a tapered barrel isn't just reducing the stress of your barrel/action joint. The real advantages of this is your tuning nodes seem to be broader and it also moves the Cg of the whole rifle back so there is more weight on the butt section of the stock. This will reduce up/down tendancies of your rifle under recoil which in turn helps your groups. More weight on the butt section... the rifle is easier to shoot and will ride the bags better under recoil. That is turn means better groups down range.

    I know a lot of guys don't like BR or any type of competition at all. But this is an example of one of the reasons why I love to also shoot in competition and not just plink/hunt at long range. You can gather a lot of data on certain situations very quickly by simply watching, asking, and listening at a match with 100s of guns being fired right in front of you. Then watch to match reports for the long term tendancies of whatever you were studying at the time.

    Steve

    PS - and having the added advantage of pulling a barrel off and installing another one in minutes is nice to have when usign the std bedding technique.
     
  8. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Writers Guild

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    The barrel blocks (at least in an unfluted, polished design) seem to keep heat in the throat and speed up the erosion process. At least, this happened in this particular barrel. But it may have just been the fact that 95 grains of double based powder was trying to go down a 338 caliber hole behind a 300 grain bullet. Who knows, but my new current 338 barrel has shot about this much powder all along and has more than doubled the barrel life expectancy of B's barrel showed but it does not have a block and has a carbon wrap by ABS.
     
  9. vinny

    vinny Member

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    Makes sense. Whats carbon wrap?
    Tell me if I'm thinking straight. I look at 34" of 1.45 barrel hanging off of 1 or even 1+1/2 inches of thread just doesn't seem like enough to hold the barrel especially with, like you said all that powder and 300 smk.. It seems to me like a block would be necessary but alot of very experienced people say different. I quess we could always add a block if it needs it.
    Thanks for sharing your exp. with me!
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2007
  10. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    IF a customer came to me with this plan, This is what I would recommend instead of a barrel block design from what I have seen.

    Receiver, take a Bat Model M 8.5"x 1.55" receiver.

    Make some custom Stainless Steel Pillars, I prefer 1" diameter recessed to 5/8" where they can be seen at the bottom of the stock. There are three main support bolts on a BAT receiver of this size.

    barrel would be anything you wanted in a top quality barrel. Barrel length would be 30", 32" at max. The reason, you will not gain anything meaningful going longer and all you loose is barrel stiffness and add stress to the receiver and bedding system. I have tested my huge 338 AM with its 150 gr powder capacity. I have tested the same load in a 40", 36" and 32" barrel length. With the 265 gr AT RBBT, 145 gr of H50BMG produced 3545 fps in the 40" barrel, 3495 fps in the 36" barrel and 3460 fps in the 32" barrel. Now this is a chambering with nearly 50% larger powder capacity then the 338 Lapua Improved and the velocity loss is barely over 10 fps per inch of barrel loss from 40" to 32" in barrel length.

    My point, this rifle will be made for extreme percision, the BAT receiver with a stainless steel pillar bedding system will easily handle a 30 to 32" 1.450" fluted barrel with nothing more in bedding.

    Also, you can put it into a stock that is much more appropriate for this class of rifle, The BBR tooley 1000 yard BR stock is a perfect choice for this type of rifle. It has a higher CP then the 50LBR stock so its more comfortable to shoot, it is plenty large in the areas it needs to be for strength and consistancy, it rides just as well in the bags with a proper rear bag design and the trigger will drop down to where it should be in this stock, unlike the overly thick 50LBR stock that causes the trigger to hang down much less then it should.

    If you decide to go with a carbon wrapped barrel, the need for a block of any kind is even less important as the barrel has alot less mass so the receiver supports the barrel much easier.

    Only thing I would warn about the ABS barrels, they are hard as hell to get. They are expensive and it can be a fight just to get a barrel. I have two of them that will be on order for over a year come the first of the year with no sign of them showing up in spite of endless squeakin the wheel!!!

    Plus the cost of their "big bore" carbon wrapped barrels is nearly $1100 from the last price list I saw. Even if the barrel life is 50% longer then an all steel barrel, which they are not, you could still get two all steel barrels for the same price as the ABS and have more rounds to shoot as well.

    Just my opinion. If the barrels were easy to get and less expensive, they would be a steal, but as they are, I can not recommend them to customers at this time. Just to may headaches to get the barrels. They are great barrels and its hard to say I can not recommend them but I simply can not in good conscience to someone looking for a barrel.

    So my recommendation would be and thats all it is, for what you want:

    BAT Model M 8.5x1.55 single shot
    BAT 20 or 40 moa rail, depends on what scope you want to use
    30-32" 1.450" straight cylinder heavy fluted 1-10 barrel
    McMillan MBR tooley 1000 yard BR stock
    Custom Stainless steel pillar bedding system
    Jewell trigger
    Steel ADL trigger guard
    Custom 4 port compact muzzle brake

    With that weight barrel, I would say you could never tell the consistancy difference between it and a heavy V-Blocked rifle.

    Plus you would be dealing with a 25 to 28 lb class rifle instread of a +60 lb rifle which believe me, even just taking from the truck to the bench makes alot of difference and a 25 to 28 lb rifle is plenty for shooting at any range. Built correctly, even an 18 lb class rifle can accurately shoot to 3000 yards(when chambered for the correct wildcat!!!:D)

    Again, not trying to talk you out of anything, just offering another opinion on what I have seen works best for this class of wildcat.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  11. vinny

    vinny Member

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    Thanks for the info.. I already have the 10x2" Bat. Tha barrel has been ordered but Mark could cut it down and flute it, The Mcmillan 50 hbr is ordered so is the scope its a usoptics sn9 10-42x it has 235 moa of elevation. I know Mark does excellent work but will ask about the Stainless steel pillar bedding system. The trigger and guard are same we just never spoke of the brake but I'll mention it to Mark as well.
    Thankyou for sharing your knowledge
    Vinny
     
  12. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    If you have the BAT 10x2 receiver, you need no barrel block of any kind. How can I say this with so much confidence....

    My Black Sunshine, 338 Allen Magnum, has a 1.750" straight cylinder barrel, 40" finish length screwed to a BAT 10x2 and the barrel is completely floated. Now this is a toad of a barrel, nearly 25 lbs just in barrel.

    At 100 yards, it shoots in the high .1's, low .2's and thats with a 265 gr AT RBBT at 3560 fps. It will drive the 300 gr SMK to 3450 fps with same accuracy. At half mile, 1/2 moa is pretty easy to get, in fact I have shot several 1/5 and a couple 1/10 moa groups!!!

    I have shot enough 1/2 moa groups at 1000 yards that I know the rifle system is stable. I have also taken rockchucks at 1095, 2100 and 2370 yards with this rifle, again with nothing but a conventional pillar bedding system using my custom large diameter stainless steel pillars with the huge barrel fully floated.

    Since you have the BAT 10x2, there is no need at all for anything but a conventional bedding system with stout pillars. Any barrel you have talked about will not even begin to strain that receiver. All that given that you use a stock stout enough to support the weight of the barrel.

    With the BAT 10x2, you will need a BMG stock, big mac, 50LBR or 50 HBR. I prefer the 50LBR with that receiver just because its easier to get front rests to work with it.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  13. vinny

    vinny Member

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    Thanks Kirby
    That makes me feel better. I guess the only thing I need to discuss with Mark is the "custom large diameter stainless steel pillars". If memory serves me, I think he mentioned something about a stainless bedding system or studs or something to that effect.
    Thanks again
    Vinny
    Black Sunshine must be a cannon! Love it!!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2007