Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

[bigngreen]

I also really hate blood shot game, I have cut over 12,000 big game animals and that is why I made the switch to Barnes, you can eat the hole and they have been very effective on shots under 500 yds. I have found them hard to get to shoot and am not very confident in there longrange performance.
I have had excellent shooting results with the Accubond and the Berger, both shoot well under MOA @ 1000yds using the same load. I intend to use the Accubond for regular hunting ranges and the Berger for longrange.
A friend of mine shot 3 deer last year with a 243 loaded with Bergers, all under 200yds and all heavey quartering shots. All died instantly but they also looked like a gernade went of on the back side. I do not want that performance in close but at slower speed I expect them to be just the ticket.
Can't kill it if you can't hit it regardless of terminal performance and I have definatly got confidence in what the Bergers are doing for me.

 

[hypersonic]

Excellent article Eric

The only bullets I have had fail to open for me in the last few years were two .264 120's Barnes tsx's. That was the end of barnes for me for hunting. Now they have added a plastic tip to the tsx too little too late for me. I have just recently got into shooting Berger hunting Vld's on paper and I am ashamed it took me so long to wise up. I shoot smaller groups on average more consistantly with less loading headaches with the Bergers. This year I will be using them for Whitetails and Mule Deer in .264 .284 and .308. I have no doubt that a properly placed shot with one will give me a DRT. I am trying to get my hands on a .338 ultra currently and a Berger 300 hunting Vld woud sure make me all warm and fuzzy. In the 30-378 with H-50BMG under the 210's 1" groups at 300 yards are the rule rather than the exception. I do still love the nosler partition and also like the accubond when Moose are on the menu and ranges are shorter. I am somewhat on the fence for Elk and leaning for the accubond for this season.

Hype

 

[Eric Stecker]

Has Berger ever considered the VLD style in a more controlled expansion model to provide a choice to hunters who prefer a controlled expansion bullet? Just a question and hopefuly something to think about.

Matt,

You bring up a good point that is important to address. It is not marketing hype when I say things like "Berger is committed to improving the shooting experience." That statement literally describes the way we look at our entire operation.

Now that our line is seperated into 3 distinct groups (Varmint, Target and Hunting) we are looking at each group from an application specific point of view. This is allowing us to consider things that were not thought of before because our focus was on making all our bullets as consistent as possible.

We have the consistency part figured out. Now we can look at each line and ask how can these specific bullets be made better? Frankly, right now I don't have the answer to that question. However, the fact that we are committed to answering it means that resources and efforts are being put toward these projects.

One of the things that we will not sacrifice is precision. So any improvements to the performance of the bullet must allow the bullet to shoot as good or better. We have worked with bonding cores, jacket changes and different materials with no successful results. This does not mean that a solution is not out there but we haven't found it yet.

We believe that the Berger Hunting VLDs are the best hunting bullets that we can produce. They work very well for the vast majority of hunters. We are investigating the few reports of failures to perform as expected. However, I am confident that the percentage of Bergers that fail to perform as expected is low as compared to the percentage of failures realized when using other hunting bullets.

Keep an eye out for evolutions in all of our lines. Each line will get more and more effective for the given application making the rifle shooting experience even better.

Regards,
Eric

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Matt,

You bring up a good point that is important to address. It is not marketing hype when I say things like "Berger is committed to improving the shooting experience." That statement literally describes the way we look at our entire operation.

Now that our line is seperated into 3 distinct groups (Varmint, Target and Hunting) we are looking at each group from an application specific point of view. This is allowing us to consider things that were not thought of before because our focus was on making all our bullets as consistent as possible.

We have the consistency part figured out. Now we can look at each line and ask how can these specific bullets be made better? Frankly, right now I don't have the answer to that question. However, the fact that we are committed to answering it means that resources and efforts are being put toward these projects.

One of the things that we will not sacrifice is precision. So any improvements to the performance of the bullet must allow the bullet to shoot as good or better. We have worked with bonding cores, jacket changes and different materials with no successful results. This does not mean that a solution is not out there but we haven't found it yet.

We believe that the Berger Hunting VLDs are the best hunting bullets that we can produce. They work very well for the vast majority of hunters. We are investigating the few reports of failures to perform as expected. However, I am confident that the percentage of Bergers that fail to perform as expected is low as compared to the percentage of failures realized when using other hunting bullets.

Keep an eye out for evolutions in all of our lines. Each line will get more and more effective for the given application making the rifle shooting experience even better.

Regards,
Eric

Thanks for the reply Eric,

You guys make some very good bullets and a lot of shooters and hunters use them with great success. Am hoping Berger will offer a controlled expansion version of the VLD someday. Until then they are candidates for my longer range shots.

Best,

Mark

 

[Blacktail]

Am i missing something or is my computer a ***. I cant see the pics? Very interesting reading since i am just now tring the 168 vld in my STW and got great accuracy at 3150 fps. Can anyone send me the pics or post them up thnx

 

[Wild_Bill]

Am i missing something or is my computer a ***. I cant see the pics? Very interesting reading since i am just now tring the 168 vld in my STW and got great accuracy at 3150 fps. Can anyone send me the pics or post them up thnx

Hi Blacktail try the 180's i think they are much better balanced for the STW case everything above a 280 works better in my opinion with the 180gr projectile over the 168 the smaler cases their is not a heap in it.

Cheers Bill
Australia

 

[Eric Stecker]

Blacktail,

I can't help you with the pictures but for what it's worth I can see the pictures with my computer so they are still there.

To All,

This brings me to another interesting announcement. Barnes has rewritten the beginning content of their article. It is good that they would expand upon, explain or even correct their data. I didn't see anything that changed their opinion or position but they did expand upon their original comments.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/bullet-talk/lab-tests/

Still no mention of why they published such high 1,000 yard velocity numbers. They confirmed Bryan Litz' report that their G1 BC numbers are generated by shooting at 300 yards. They go further to say that their BC is intentionally set up to represent shots up to 600 yards (not 1,000 yards).

I do not believe that there is much new to be said since they did not modify their position. I disagree with many of their assertions but it is up to the hunters to decide which company is most genuinely representing their bullets.

Regards,
Eric

 

[smilingcoyote]

Im no expert, and im not the smartest fella but when I look at the accuracy chart and all the barnes bullets go under m.o.a. and all other bullets put up not only lackluster results, but mediocre at best. Bullets we have all used with good results, apparently wont shoot for them. However the barnes performance ,accuracy wise was stellar, contrary to what most people experience with the barnes. After the first chart I looked at the rest of the info with little expectation of an unbiased and objective result. Not to mention the power belt test, I dislike them cause they deform too rapidly and they claim no expansion. Come on!

 

[Steve7mm08]

I have had great success with Barnes TSX in my 7MM08 but always found the quoted BC to be overstated.

When I get the 7mm08 rebarreled I am wanting to try the .284 140gn Hunting VLD for my longer shots.

Just wish we had a decent Berger distributor here in New Zealand that holds a good variety of stock.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Agree with the conclusions.. I shoot SMK's for most hunting situations as well as all match shooting. The bullets chosen in the tests have relatively thin jackets and the initial velocities given the impact range at 100 yards is a given pretty much at the longer ranges it is a different story. Have a good friend at Sierra who I have known for around 20 years and we shoot together in competition. I specifically choose the SMK's used for hunting by jacket thickness and core content ---- ABSOLUTELY take into account the impact speed during the load development process.

Do not want to get into a peeing contest here but if you want to be successful at 600 yards the same ammo might not be the best choice at 75 yards. That is why in a couple of my rifles I have 2 different loads that I can use -- one for short and one for long. Some if not most will not want to go to this much trouble but for those that do it is fun.

 

[6.5shaggy]

Good article by both Eric and Barnes ; kind of. In my opinion the test images clearly show the proper and consistant performance of the vld. Notice the initial penetration then the MASSIVE wound channel that went a minium of 10 to 12 inches. I have limited experience with barnes and have no quarrell; but I do have much experience with the vld. I shoot a 6.5-284 exclusively with 140 vlds at 2950fps. I have not had the luxury to hunt elk but i've been practicing on wild hogs here in Texas for YEARS. An example that comes to mind is this spring I shot a boar around 200 lbs at a lasered 647 yds . The impact was high center ribcage with total pass through. The hog dropped , got up(if you ever hunted hogs you know they are TUFF) spun twice and wobbled off in the brush. I went to track him and found where he was standing. The ground was covered in blood ,blood soaked foodstuffs , and what looked like mutalated lung. There was a thick blood trail with bone fragments for about 100 yards into the thick briars in wich I did not trek; allthough , his demise I am certain. I drove about a mile to a different pasture and found another group of hogs with a large spotted boar around 275 lbs. After a short stalk I lasered him at 197 yds and placed a dead on point of shoulder shot to test bullet performance. He was dropped instantly. During post mortum I found the following: thru armor plate, shattered scapula, top of heart gone, both lungs blood shot with bullet fragments in off side lung , pencil hole in front of off side shoulder with bullet remains(probably about 40-50 grs) resting just under hide. These two examples show good performance on both close and extended range. Again, Ihave no quarrel with Barnes, but I shoot only one bullet. VLD !gun)

 

[Eric Stecker]

Our Technology Manager, Mark Durfee had an opportunity to hunt black bear outside of St. Johns. On the fourth day they spotted a bear about 2 miles away. They spent considerable effort making their way through the marshlands to get a closer shot.

After coming over the rise that they believed would be their last they stopped to recover and see where the bear had gone. Within moments of taking a knee Mark feels the guides hand touch his shoulder. He looks up and sees the 350 pound black bear 30 feet directly in front of them.

Fortunately, the bear was upwind and had not noticed the two men. Mark setting his pack down maneuvers his 30-06 Winchester rifle around for the shot trying to keep his breathing steady. He shoulders the rifle and within a short period of time cracks the trigger.

The bear lurched and dashed into the nearby trees and shrubs. The two men paused to listen for activity and decided to move forward. The bear had traveled 10 feet and was still. The bullet entered just behind the near shoulder traveled though the internals and what was left came out through the far shoulder.

To prepare for this hunt Mark tested the accuracy of his rifle with the 30 cal 210 gr VLD Hunting and the 185 gr VLD Hunting. The 185 gr VLD grouped tighter than the 210 gr by quite a bit in his rifle. He knew the longest shot he would take is 350 yards so the 185 gr VLD was a good choice. He is happy with the short range performance of the Berger Hunting VLD.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Robert K]

This is a thread for discussion of the article, Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful, By Eric Stecker. Here you can ask questions or make comments about the article.

Great article, However I have difficulty finding ballistic tests for the 30-06 it seems the new generation is into the short mags and smaller cals.

I have been very intrested in how the Berger VLD preforms in the videos I have seen. I'll be hunting elk this year on late hunt in Arizona. I'll be using my 30-06. I just began reloading after many years away from the hobby. What grain bullet do you recommend and any reloading and best powder recommendations and data for the Berger VLD would be helpful. Presently, I'm shooting 180 gr. Win. XP3 Supremes.

If I am blessed to have a bull in my crosshairs when I pull the trigger I want him to drop.

 

[Eric Stecker]

Robert,

For the best response you can do two things. First, I recommend starting a new thread called "Good 30-06 loads?" where you can list your particulars and see what other hunters have found works best for them. As this particular thread gets longer fewer people will look at new posts so a new thread will get the most eyes.

The second thing you can do is once you have selected the bullet or bullets which you want to use or try (assuming they are Berger) send an email with your case and bullets to Walt Berger at [email protected]. Walt will reply with a full spread of loading data.

In Mark's case he was not interested in trying several different loads. He knew his shot would not be a long one so if he could get good precision out of the few loads he tried that was good for him.

He was fortunate that the 185 gr VLD Hunting shot very well (1/2 MOA) right away. This is frequently the result but not always. Each rifle has its own unique set of components and can shoot differently than others that will use the same load.

Regards,
Eric