Iam torn between the 180gr TTSX and the 185 berger for my elk hunt with my 300wsm. I have had nothing but good luck with the Barnes, but hear about all these bang flop dead with the berger, my concern is the barnes I can shoot on a raking shot and get where i need to, with the berger Ive read they can open up and not get where they need to on a raking shot or bad hit.........your thoughts?? Experiences???
Barnes TTSX vs Berger VLD
- Thread starter Dalebow
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It really depends on where you're going to hunt and how far you're going to shoot. I've been using the Bergers for the past 3 years on elk and I'm pretty happy with them. I haven't had too many bang-flops but I haven't had anything get away. The Bergers do work well but I hunt in pretty open country and the high BCs of the Bergers make 800 yard shots with a 7mm Rem or WSM more possible than with lower BC bullets. I haven't shot many Barnes bullets but at those ranges, my biggest fear would be a failure to expand. Not impossible with even the Bergers but I think more possible with harder bullets like the Barnes.
That being said, the majority of the elk I've killed have been in North Idaho in the thicker stuff. Places where 10 yard shots aren't uncommon and shots out beyond 100 yards were pretty uncommon. In that scenario, I might want a bullet that was going to give me maximum penetration. The Barnes might be the best for maximum penetration (arguably so at least).
So, if you're planning on taking 500 to 600 (or longer) shots on elk, the Bergers might be the way to go. If your shots are probably going to be 500 or closer, you might want to stick with the Barnes or some other harder (mono or bonded or partition style bullets). I'm sure that there are at least a few on here who use the Barnes for long range and like them. I believe that John Burns even used Barnes 7mm 150's for a while and I guess that he determined that they would get the job done at longer ranges.
I have yet to see a Berger fail to penetrate a shoulder when placed there but have witnessed dramatic differences between different Berger bullets. I shoot the 168's from a 7mm and my experience has been good with them. Good penetration and some bullet fragmentation but generally something on the order of golf ball sized holes going into the rib cages on the far side of the chest cavity, so the majority of the bullet has penetrated the vitals and gone into the far side. My uncle, and several of my buddies, chose to shoot the Berger 168s from 300 Winchesters and their bullets, at ranges less than 200 yards, were highly explosive.
I watched my uncle shoot a caribou, completely broadside, at about 100 or 150 yards. He hit it right behind the shoulder and the bullet fragmented so badly that there were guts blown up on the inside. My dad shot a deer with my buddies 300 Winchester at about 70 or 80 yards. It was quartered away so he hit about 6 or 7 inches behind the near shoulder, angling for the far shoulder. The bullet again exploded and upon evicerating the buck discovered that there was no damage to any meat with the exception of the entrance hole. The lungs had been turned to jello and nothing touched the far side of the critter. My guess is that the 30 cal 185's would probably perform more like my 168 7mm's but I have no evidence of that.
Anyway, now you have a few accounts of the way the Bergers can perform, hope I added some food for thought.
Cross
That being said, the majority of the elk I've killed have been in North Idaho in the thicker stuff. Places where 10 yard shots aren't uncommon and shots out beyond 100 yards were pretty uncommon. In that scenario, I might want a bullet that was going to give me maximum penetration. The Barnes might be the best for maximum penetration (arguably so at least).
So, if you're planning on taking 500 to 600 (or longer) shots on elk, the Bergers might be the way to go. If your shots are probably going to be 500 or closer, you might want to stick with the Barnes or some other harder (mono or bonded or partition style bullets). I'm sure that there are at least a few on here who use the Barnes for long range and like them. I believe that John Burns even used Barnes 7mm 150's for a while and I guess that he determined that they would get the job done at longer ranges.
I have yet to see a Berger fail to penetrate a shoulder when placed there but have witnessed dramatic differences between different Berger bullets. I shoot the 168's from a 7mm and my experience has been good with them. Good penetration and some bullet fragmentation but generally something on the order of golf ball sized holes going into the rib cages on the far side of the chest cavity, so the majority of the bullet has penetrated the vitals and gone into the far side. My uncle, and several of my buddies, chose to shoot the Berger 168s from 300 Winchesters and their bullets, at ranges less than 200 yards, were highly explosive.
I watched my uncle shoot a caribou, completely broadside, at about 100 or 150 yards. He hit it right behind the shoulder and the bullet fragmented so badly that there were guts blown up on the inside. My dad shot a deer with my buddies 300 Winchester at about 70 or 80 yards. It was quartered away so he hit about 6 or 7 inches behind the near shoulder, angling for the far shoulder. The bullet again exploded and upon evicerating the buck discovered that there was no damage to any meat with the exception of the entrance hole. The lungs had been turned to jello and nothing touched the far side of the critter. My guess is that the 30 cal 185's would probably perform more like my 168 7mm's but I have no evidence of that.
Anyway, now you have a few accounts of the way the Bergers can perform, hope I added some food for thought.
Cross
Yeah, I think that some of them can perform like mini-grenades but like I said, the 168 7mm VLDs don't blow up too badly. I pretty much expect them to go through one shoulder, come apart somewhat and then go into the other shoulder.
I have one friend who shoots the 210 VLDs and they seem to stick together pretty well too.
Cross
I have one friend who shoots the 210 VLDs and they seem to stick together pretty well too.
Cross
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
Shoot the barnes at elk. Any bullet will do a bang flop with the high shoulder shot. But not any bullet will kill your elk from any shot angle you may be presented on your average elk hunt. The Barnes will.
6.5shaggy
Well-Known Member
I have never shot an elk, but I have shot a lot of Texas hogs, some of considerable size, so make your own judgments. I built a 284 win last year for use at long range with 180 VLDs. I shot one Christmas at 854 lasered yds 300 lb boar 1/4ing away. Entered 4 ribs behind shoulder, exited at front point of off shoulder with a baseball size hole. Probably 16 inches of boar, I have pics. Next day I shot 3 more all about 200- 275 lbs at 345yds,401yds and 225yds all with similar results. I think a 185 vld to 210 vld at 300wsm velocities would do well.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Which ever one shoots the best would be my choice! I wouldn't be afraid of either bullet to much but of the two I've only had the Barnes fail on elk.
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
The Bergers have a history of shedding their jacket and coming apart. I have seen quite a few elk lost with them. The Barnes ttsx will not fail you.
Broz
Well-Known Member
I agree, and if distances are way out there the Berger will do a way better job of terminal damage at lower velocities. The elk below was with 210 Bergers from a 30-378 Wby. at 250 yards.
He never took a step. both front shoulders were broken. Been taking elk with bergers for years. Never had one go over 100 yards and Ray charles could have followed the blood trail.
Accuracy and shot placement are king in my book. If the shot it placed well all is good. Gut shoot an elk with any bullet and you will be tracking for a while. But if you are off just a little the fragment from the Berger will cover your butt.
Jeff
Spot on... I've taken and seen taken a lot of game with TSX bullets and they flat out kill extremely well and they will not come apart and lose penetration on close shot. I have taken game to as far as 777 yards and it was a bang flop
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Magnumitis
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Obviously that's true, but in an extreme quartering away shot the TTSX will punch through the guts and drive itself into or through the offside shoulder. The Berger won't do that.
Broz
Well-Known Member
Who says? I have seen plenty of penetration with Bergers on all game including large elk at extended diatances. So which of us is right here?
Maybe the guy that kills more elk with Bergers. Maybe the guy that kills more elk with Solids.
Truth is, there are no two shots that can ever be the same. Angle, velocity, placement, animal size.
If people would shoot more accuratly, and place the bullet decent we would never have these discussions. But it never fails, it is too easy to blame bullets for poorly placed shots. My favorite is the ones that were " Placed Perfect" but we never recovered the animal. ???? I have done my share of hunting just like everyone else. I can honestly say that every bullet I placed well was either DRT or a short track. If I didnt place it so well I had a bit more tracking. But there has been a few times were I was on the edge of poor placement and the Bergers saved my *** by still damaging vitals.
Different designs and choice. But I have seen plenty of Barnes fail too when not placed well or didnt expand for what ever reason. I can not change the haters mind, and do not wish to, and they will not change mine. I know what I can place well and that is king to me, and it is working. Just like solid shoote prefer what they like too.
Over and out.
Jeff
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