Ballsitic Tip and V-max past 500 yards dont work (WRONG)

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by wildcat, Apr 21, 2007.

  1. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    Hello all, remeber when you are reading this, I know all about BC and the importance of using high BC bullets for long range shooting. So PLEASE!! don't lecture me about the importance of high BC bullets.

    Many have stated these bullets do not perform well past 500 yards, BULL S--T!!!

    Here we go, I am building a new project and I am designing it around the 300-WSM using a 125grn Nosler Ballistic Tip traveling at 4000+fps for squirrel hunting out to 1000 yards. This is against the norm, so some on this sight have suggested that this bullet will not perform well past 500 yards. This is a bunch of bull s--t!!!.

    I've used ballistic Tip and V-max bullets for shots out to 1000 yards with great results. Now, I've designed my rifles around these bullets as well as shooting them at very high velocities and that's probably why I have had good results. I have made many consistant kills on ground squirrels at ranges of 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, and 1000 yards using these bullets out of a 223, 220 Swift and 6x284. So, I know they do perform well past 500 yards.

    PLEASE!!!! STOP SAYING THESE BULLETS DON'T PERFORM WELL PAST 500 yards. They perform well out to 1000 yards. Now if people want to say they don't work well past 1000 yards, then I would proably agree with that argument.

    The bottom line is, when these bullets are pushed fast, they perform very well past 500 yards and out to 1000 yards.

    Wildcat
     

  2. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    Well, being as you know everything, I guess you won't be asking for any advice in the future.
     

  3. jwp475

    jwp475 Well-Known Member

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    LMAO ROTF /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
     
  4. Dan B

    Dan B Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Well, being as you know everything, I guess you won't be asking for any advice in the future.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    +1!!
     
  5. ss7mm

    ss7mm Writers Guild

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    Note to self:

    1: Take knot out of knickers /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    2: Take a chill pill /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    3: Learn to forgive all of those that don't know as much about BTs and V-max as you do /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    4: Lay off the caffeine /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    5: Order thicker skin from Doc /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    6: Learn to explain and quantify rants so they're easier for the rest of us to understand /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    You did say "Hello All", so I just figured I was one of the All. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  6. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    Basically some on this site have said these types of bullets don't work past 500 yards. That type of statment is just not true. I am not saying I know everything, however, I will say I do know these bullets perform very well past 500 yards. I just want others to know that these bullets work very well out to 1000 yards, because they have worked for me.

    I think your taking my post the wrong way, I apologize if I offended you. I just have lot's of experience using these types of bullets with good results, and I wanted to share my experience.



    Wildcat
     
  7. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    I took a chill pill.

    I took the knot out the knickers.

    I got off the caffine.

    Ordered some new thick skin.

    Sorry, I said hello all.

    Anyhow, I will next time direct the rant at the individual who made the comment.

    Thanks for the advice.

    Wildcat
     
  8. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    Re: Ballisitic Tip and V-max past 500 yards dont work (WRONG)

    I would like to hear from those who have had a good experience with Ballistic Tip and V-Max bullets. I know you guys are out there.

    Wildcat
     
  9. .25AOD

    .25AOD Well-Known Member

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    Re: Ballisitic Tip and V-max past 500 yards dont work (WRONG)

    I think we all know they'll work... I just think that others on this board were trying to say that there are better options for "long range hunting", that's it. I for one think the BT and V-Max will work well for your intended purpose with the new squirel gun. Although, I do wonder... if you use a 25# .300 WSM for ground squirels, I'd hate to see what you'd use for an elk rifle. Anyone out there gotta a 20mic for Mr. Wildcat to use?... course I guess that would only be enough gun for the occasional shot at a Pronghorn.
    I'm just flippin' you a little crap WC... you know I love the BTs too baby. I'd just be worried about wind on those light-for-caliber bullets that's all. Of course, here in the Seattle area we have to wory about the wind blowing hard all the time durring baseball and basketball season.
    ~JT
     
  10. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Wow!!!

    I have yet to hear anyone say that a Ballistic Tip or V-Max bullet will not work past 500 yards. Hell even out to 800 yards. The question comes down to are they the best for long range shooting. Simply put, no way.

    Before I start my response, let me first say that I personally feel there is no safe, practical way for you to achieve 4000 fps with a 300 WSM with a 125 gr bullet weight. A 300 Win Mag will top out around 3700-3800 fps in a 30" barrel.

    The 300 WSM, in spite of what has been said in the press, WILL NOT MATCH A 300 WIN MAG in performance when both are loaded to same chamber pressures in same barrel length with same bullet weights.

    A 300 RUM may get you 4K in the right rifle, to get it with a 300 WSM would be, again in my opinion, impossible with comfortable pressures.

    All that aside, lets get back to the topic of Ballistic Tips and V-Max bullets not working past 500 yards. Again, I have never heard anyone on this board say that. What I have heard said is that there are much better choices for long range shooting if your looking for higher retained velocity, higher retained energy and dramatically less wind drift.

    Trajectory, out to a point I will give you that a light fast bullet will be impressive, but bullet drop is so easy to compensate for its hardly worth including in the discussion of LR shooting. Its wind drift that will make you miss 90% of the time because it is impossible to perfectly dope the wind at long range.

    As such, you will get a higher percentage of hits with a high BC bullet compared to a low one because your windage estimate can have a larger margin of error then with a light low BC bullet.

    As far as terminal performance the tipped bullets will open up better at long range as long as their velocity remains at a certain point.

    Lets look at some numbers for rounds you listed. In the 223 we will use a 55 gr Ballistic Tip(bc .267) at 3200 fps. In the 220 we will use the same 55 gr BT at 3900 fps. In the 6-284 we will use the 70 gr BT(BC .310) at 3900 fps.

    For comparision, we will use the rifle and load I used this last week to take a large Fallow buck, a 22-250 AI with the 100 gr ULD RBBT Wildcat(bc .600 from drop test) loaded to 3100 fps.

    At 500 yards, here are the retained velocity numbers:

    223.............1615 fps
    220.............2074 fps
    6-284...........2285 fps
    22-250 AI.......2320 fps

    While the 22-250 AI load was by far the slowest starting load of the four, it has already surpassed them all at 500 yards and only the big 6-284 is even close as both the swift and 223 have fallen WAY back in retained velocity.

    There is really no point but lets look at the 1000 yard retained velocity numbers:

    223................940 fps (there will be no expansion)
    220................1061 fps (there will be no expansion)
    6-284..............1223 fps (minimul expansion)
    22-250 AI..........1686 fps

    With a properly designed bullet and open meplat the 22-250 AI load should offer expansion out to 1000 yards easily while the others will be not at all or minimum. In the case of the 223 and 220, you will get no expansion at all, even with the tipped bullets to terminal performance at this range will be very poor. Hit a prairie dog in the head and he is dead, hit him anywhere else and you will not stop him before he hits his den.

    Now lets look at energy numbers at 500 yards:

    223.....................318 ft/lbs
    220.....................525 ft/lbs
    6-284...................812 ft/lbs
    22-250 AI...............1195 ft/lbs

    The 223 will have similiar energy to the hotter 22 long rifles out today at the muzzle. Plenty for small game but in my opinion, no good for anything larger then prairie dogs and gophers. Yes if you hit a chuck or yote in the head, he will die. But if you do not, you will loose them a very high percentage of the time.

    The Swift still has enough power for game up to the size of yotes at this range pretty comfortably.

    The 6-284 is still packing a good load for varmints but the 22-250 AI still has plenty of ft/lbs of energy for even lighter deer size game. It is totally out of the league of the other rounds its compared to here inspite of its sluggish muzzle velocity.

    Now at 1000 yards:

    223........................108 ft/lbs
    220........................137 ft/lbs
    6-284......................234 ft/lbs
    22-250 AI..................631 ft/lbs

    Now the 223 and 220 are not even worth discussing. You will not have any expansion and you very little retained energy. Basically, you better brain a P. dog or you will loose him.

    The 6-284 is better but not by much, about the level of a standard 22 Rim Fire at the muzzle. again, if you brain them, they will die but anything else will be a lost vermin.

    The 22-250 AI, while not a powerhouse still offers 4.5 times as much energy as the hot rodded 220 swift at this range and close to three times more then the 6-284.

    It would be totally practical to take yote size game with the 22-250 AI at this range without saying its luck. Not so with the others even on chuck size game, again without a direct brain hit.

    Now lets look at the reason we all miss, windage. Here are the 500 yard numbers:

    223......................34.5"
    220......................25.4"
    6-284....................20.9"
    22-250 AI................13.4"

    The numbers speak for themselves. The 22-250 AI has 1/2 the windage of the 220 and a full 7" less then the big 6-284. Guessing around a foot of windage is alot easier then 2 or 3 feet of windage at this range. This is with only a 10 mph crosswind as well.

    Now lets look at 1000 yards:

    223........................179.1"
    220........................143.5"
    6-284......................113.4"
    22-250 AI..................61.9"

    Still it ranges anywhere from nearly twice to nearly 3 times as much drift with the first three fast rounds compared to the windage of the slow 22-250 AI with the 100 gr pill.

    Now lets look at bullet drop, your fast rounds should do better here one would think, but do they really???? Here are 500 yard drop numbers with a 300 yard zero:

    223...................-34.5"
    220...................-21.4"
    6-284.................-19.8"
    22-250 AI.............-23.6"

    Basically, the last three are in the same class. Yes the slower 22-250 AI drops more then the swift and 6-284 but only by 2" and 4" respectively. The 223 is not even close to these three.

    At 1000 yards:

    223......................-442"
    220......................-283"
    6-284....................-227"
    22-250 AI................-213"

    So for all the hoopla at the muzzle, all drop more then the lowly 22-250 AI at a 3100 fps muzzle velocity. The 223 drops over 19 feet more!!!! The 220 drops over 6 feet more and the hot rod 6-284 drops around a foot more.

    Again, I do not care about bullet drop much. This is easy to figure and comp for but its just another area that proves high velocity, low BC bullets will not run with slower high BC bullets.

    Now to compare directly with your 300 WSM idea. I would say 3800 fps will be the highest velocity you will ever see and still get usible case life.

    As such here are the numbers:

    300 WSM, 125 gr BT(bc .366) @ 3800 fps

    1000 yard retained energy.......569 ft/lbs

    1000 yard retained velocity.....1431 ft/lbs

    1000 yard windage...............91"

    1000 yard drop..................-198"

    Retianed energy is 60 ft/lbs less then the 22-250 AI. Retained velocity is nearly 250 fps less then the little 22-250 AI at 1K.

    The 300 WSM will have 30" more wind drift at this range.

    I will admit that the 300 WSM will have about a foot less drop at 1000 yards but again, this is not worth comparing as bullet drop really is not a determining factor in choosing a long range round.

    Anyway, no one has ever said to my knowledge that the bullets you mentioned WILL NOT WORK past 500 yards. I feel that many on this board have done their best to try to stear you in the right direction because many of us have been where you are and thought as you did but have since learned much since that time and know better.

    You may have to go through that as well to learn what many have already learned. We are just trying to save you the large amount of money you will have to spend to learn this lesson the hard way but if thats what needs to be done then thats what needs to happen.

    Many on this board have tested all the rounds you have mentioned including myself. I have compared 40 gr BTs in the 223 at 3800 fps to 80 gr VLDs at 2750 fps and at long range the heavy bullets make it MUCH easier to hit consistantly.

    I have tested the 55 gr BTs in the 220 swift, 22-250 AI and 22-6mm AI and also tested the 80 and 100 gr bullets in them as well and there is simply no comparision as far as making consistant hits at long range. The heavy pills win hands down.

    In the 6-284, I have tested the 55, 70, 80 and 95 gr Ballistic tips at their highest possible velocities in a 30" barrel compared to the 105 gr A-Max and 107 gr SMK and again, no light bullet will hold a candle to the heavier pills in any catagory as far as taking small game at long range in the big 6mm.

    We have all tested the high velocity idea in the big 30 cal magnums as well, many MUCH Larger then the 300 WSM and the idea simply does not compare in any way to the higher BC bullets at lower velocities.

    We are not saying a Ballistic Tip or V-Max will not work at ranges past 500 yards. What we are saying is that there is a degree of performance so far above those bullets its hardly worth comparing the two different types of loads. It has been tested time and time again and in every case, every case that I know of when a shooter honestly tested a high velocity, low BC load against a moderate velocity high BC load, in every case they went with the modetate velocity high BC load for long range shooting for one reason,

    Its easier to hit at long range with these loads!!!

    This is your call, do what you like and what you think will work but many on this board are just trying to point you in the right direction.

    Every so often someone comes on here saying exactly what you say and within a year or so, that same person is usually the ones replying to the next guy that brings up this topic to go with the slower high BC bullets. And in many cases, that new guy will also have to learn the lesson for themselves.

    So, please do what you think will work best but in my professional opinion, you are dreaming if you think you will get 4K with a 300 WSM and a 125 gr Ballistic Tip with safe pressures and decent case life but I have been proven wrong before.

    Please be sure to test your results so we can all see this wonder of a rifle. I think you may be suprised at what you get in the finished product. again, no doubt it will work but most on here want the best they can get for the job at hand.

    To put it bluntly, you are heading in the wrong direction and we just want to help you before you write the check and figure out you will have to spend more $$ to get what you really want in the end.

    Your comments that the Ballistic Tips in 22 cal work very well at 1000 yards tells volumes of your knowledge base. This is not a flame at you or your shooting skills, just that it bring up questions on if you have actually put a bullet on game at this range with these bullets to see what they actually do or are you punching paper on a calm day or are you just reading numbers off a ballistic program????

    They do not perform well on game at ranges from 800 to 1000 yards. They can kill small game but they are NOT reliable performance at these kind of ranges unless you get head shots. I personally feel any caliber of 6mm or smaller is marginal on game the size of chucks out at 1000 yards. I know this because I have hammers many chucks with solid hits that simply walked to their dens for a slow death.

    There is ALOT of experience and knowledge on this board, to be so "in your face" is not a wise thing to do unless you have some hard numbers to back up your comments and theories. All it does is make most of the guys on here not want to offer any help with your projects and that will hurt only you in the long run.

    Just a friendly tip.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  11. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

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    I haven't seen the post that says that the V-Maxs don't work at long range.

    The V-max and the Nosler BT are not in the same class - the V-Maxs are pure varmint bullets, with thin jackets, and the internal design where the plastic wedge hits the lead core is designed for maximum expansion - so fast, in fact that they are NOT recommended on Coyotes by the experienced 'yote shooters, because of the massive surface damage, and lack of penetration will allow the 'yote to run and die in the bush.

    On the other hand, the Nosler is a tapered jacket design, and in the small calibers, works "OK" as a varmint bullet, but it really opens much slower. When you compare the two at 500 or 800+, the V-Max will open when the Nosler will slip through.

    But the V-Max is NOT a large game bullet so your long range shots should be on varmints.

    .
     
  12. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    [ QUOTE ]
    To put it bluntly, you are heading in the wrong direction and we just want to help you before you write the check and figure out you will have to spend more $$ to get what you really want in the end.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I've been down this road. I shot 125s out of a 300 RUM (@ a measely 3940 fps w/a hot load out of a 26" bbl) and my ability to make consistant hits past 700 yds was not good. They were a blast from about 500 yds and in. VERY explosive!!! But I'm going to agree w/Kirby, if you want to stretch it out to 1000 yds, they are not the best choice. Will they work?? Sure. But will they work as well as a 208 gr hornady Amax??? Heck no!!!!!!!!
     
  13. .25AOD

    .25AOD Well-Known Member

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    Well put Fifty... you're the man when it comes to explaning why the VLD type bullets rule in LRH. That's a pretty impressive stat when you consider the .22-250 AI is bringing more to the party at 1k than the 300WSM with the 125. I, for one, appreciate the knowledge and well written posts you bring to this board. Also, I tried to make WC aware that 4k was an unreasonable expectation out of a .300WSM, but he seems to think that the reduction of twist rate and 30" pipe will somehow get him an extra 400 fps... I guess we'll see when the project is complete.

    Cat... come on man, ease up on the V-Max a little. The V-Max isn't any different than the Varmint BTs (thin jacket, pure lead core, etc.) but it is quite different from the 125 BT that WC is talking about. Any BT larger than the 85 gr./.25 cal is a Big Game bullet and designed as such. I know a couple guys who shoot 100+ coyotes a year, and the V-Max is their Meat and Potatoes. They all shoot 6mm's of some sort, they do prefer the 75 &amp; 87 grainers, and they are not concerned about pelt damage. I will concur on the .22 cal V-Max however... I have had a number of coyotes that required follow-ups due to massive impact damge but not much penetration to the vitals.
     
  14. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Cat... come on man, ease up on the V-Max a little. The V-Max isn't any different than the Varmint BTs (thin jacket, pure lead core, etc.)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm not beating up on the "varmint BT's"... but when you're talkin about 1,000 yds, you're not talking about 55 grain bullets.

    The 6mm 87 V-max is a varmint bullet, the 90 gr BT is a game bullet.
    The 6.5mm 95 grain V-Max is a varmint bullet... the Nosler 100 grain is a game bullet.

    They don't play the same.

    .