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<blockquote data-quote="SES50" data-source="post: 161357" data-attributes="member: 7753"><p>Ok, there is a lot here to respond to so sorry if I do not hit everything.</p><p></p><p>To start out with in the above post I never said you should never shoot a predator. I wrote:</p><p></p><p>"I have no issue with people shooting mountain lions or wolves when getting tags for them but I also think that predators play an important role in the eco-system."</p><p></p><p>I do not agree with shooting everything you see just because you personal think it is the right thing. There are many biologists out there that are a lot more educated and spend a great deal more time studying these things that are better suited to make that judgment call than you or I about wildlife management. From what I read when doing a fast Google search the wolves were reintroduced to take care of the large elk populations which is exactly what you guys are seeing, not for bison.</p><p></p><p> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_reintroduction" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_reintroduction</a></p><p></p><p>I have trouble with the fact that when ever people from outside California talk to people that live in California they automatically assume that we are all from the some big city and are all flaming liberal.</p><p></p><p> I have been going out hunting with my family since I was 5 years old. My parents owned a sheep ranch while I was growing up and I worked on that ranch everyday before and after school. We had to get predation permits for mountain lion that were take ewes. My father and I shot domesticated dog that have packed up to have a little fun out on the town. They were not killing for even a bit of food but because the animals were running. Then I got to go around and kill all the sheep that were wounded to the point that they were unsalvageable or unrepairable. Plus you could not eat any of it because it was all pumped full of adrenaline and would taste like crap. So, I have seen the gore that domesticated dogs can do, which I can very much correlate to what wolves can do. </p><p></p><p> In that same period of time we were dealing with poachers on our property. To this day we think the poachers where the guys that owned the dogs in the above paragraph. The poachers would coming in the back of our property and shoot does and fawns. We found 4 does with just the back straps cut out and two fawns with just the hind quarters removed. I also hunted with a set of guys from Colorado one time that I met in college. We were hunting just out side of Grand Junction and I found out at the end of our week hunting trip the way they hunt. They went out on day 2 and shot a buck. They told me that they had missed it. They continued hunting the rest of the week. At the end of the week they told me that they had to go pick this buck up that they had shot earlier in the week. I figured it out later that the plan was that if they saw a bigger buck they would shoot it and not go back for the one that they had killed on day 2. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Fiftydriver,</p><p> </p><p>So, as far as my opinion and observations of wolves compared to humans I totally agree with you when you say that we are a much more efficient killer than any other species on this planet. I personally can kill a lot more of them than they will ever take of us. But from what I read in another thread wolves are not effecting your hunting if you took 6 big game animals last fall. </p><p></p><p>You say you do not understand the fascination with people that enjoy watching predators in the wild, but in the next sentence you said it is fun to watch some aspects of their life. The fact that before we had guns and bows, humans were pack animals as well and that is how we got our food. Not every animal has learned to be so efficient, but we work together today when we go out hunting with our budies. We like the social asspect of pack hunting ourselves when we get back to camp or longrangehunting.com and start to tell our stories. Everyone has seen animal planet and how nature works. My wife wants to watch shark week on the history channel but then says "aaahhhh" every time a seal gets eaten by a shark. That is why she does not hunt. She does not have the stomach for it. </p><p></p><p>Most liberals have no clue and have probably never seen the gruesome nature of what really happens when animals hunt. They can not even deal with the fact that chickens have to die so that they can go down and buy their Kentucky Fried Chicken three piece meal deal. This is why they want to take guns away from everyone and stop all hunting. I do not like watching animals get torn apart buy other animals while they are still alive but have come to the realization that until they start using guns they may not have much other choice. It might make hunting a lot more like the middle east though.</p><p></p><p>In fact the Mountain Lions in our area kill when they get the chance and usually bury it for later. They do not always come back for everything they kill. </p><p></p><p>I agree with this statement:</p><p></p><p>"Once a wolf pack figures it can kill livestock much easier then wild game, it becomes a game. I have seen the results of two wolves wipe out an 30 sheep in one night." </p><p></p><p>This is the same as I said above about the domesticated dog. But I do think that if this is an issue you get a predation permit go take care of the issue at hand. If you get caught shooting wolves or mountain lions you will not be happy. In California if you get caught shooting a mountain lion it is a $10k fine, they take all your equipment, and you will not be able to hunt for a long while. That surely would not be worth it to me.</p><p></p><p>You wrote: "Before the wolves were introduced, the game populations in Yellowstone, specifically the elk herds were thriving, actually getting to the troublesome stage with available forage for the herds and beginning to be a real pain in the rear for local ranchers. Why, because humanes were managing the herds and we did so so efficently that their numbers exploded."</p><p></p><p>I think you mean that we took care of it inefficiently? Is that correct? </p><p></p><p>So, ranchers and farmers will never be happy if there are wolves or elk. Maybe we should just kill everything. Ranchers hate wolves, Farmers hate elk. What are we to do? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite9" alt=":eek:" title="Eek! :eek:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":eek:" /> </p><p></p><p>Another idea would have been to allow hunters to hunt in the national parks. I am all up for that because I have seen some really nice bucks in Yosemite. But I guarantee that will never happen since firearms are not allowed in national parks and the liberals will never let that get over turned.</p><p></p><p>I understand the cyclic cycle of predators and prey and most of the other stuff you wrote. My reply is just getting to long. Any way, I think we are in violent agreement except for the two facts:</p><p></p><p>1) I will not just drop every predator I see, because I do not think that them being around overly effect my hunting. I hunted or have buddies that have hunted in all the states that have had wolves reintroduced and we all get animals every time we go.</p><p></p><p>2) I enjoy seeing all kinds of animals when I am out hunting that most people will never see in their lives because they never leave the cities and roam into the wild.</p><p></p><p>I am not trying to say that your way or my way is right or wrong. This is just my opinion.</p><p></p><p>Thanks for putting out your point of view and I can not wait for your reply.</p><p></p><p>This is one dumb Californian signing off for the night. Talk to you guys again in the morning. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Sherman</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="SES50, post: 161357, member: 7753"] Ok, there is a lot here to respond to so sorry if I do not hit everything. To start out with in the above post I never said you should never shoot a predator. I wrote: “I have no issue with people shooting mountain lions or wolves when getting tags for them but I also think that predators play an important role in the eco-system.” I do not agree with shooting everything you see just because you personal think it is the right thing. There are many biologists out there that are a lot more educated and spend a great deal more time studying these things that are better suited to make that judgment call than you or I about wildlife management. From what I read when doing a fast Google search the wolves were reintroduced to take care of the large elk populations which is exactly what you guys are seeing, not for bison. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_reintroduction[/url] I have trouble with the fact that when ever people from outside California talk to people that live in California they automatically assume that we are all from the some big city and are all flaming liberal. I have been going out hunting with my family since I was 5 years old. My parents owned a sheep ranch while I was growing up and I worked on that ranch everyday before and after school. We had to get predation permits for mountain lion that were take ewes. My father and I shot domesticated dog that have packed up to have a little fun out on the town. They were not killing for even a bit of food but because the animals were running. Then I got to go around and kill all the sheep that were wounded to the point that they were unsalvageable or unrepairable. Plus you could not eat any of it because it was all pumped full of adrenaline and would taste like crap. So, I have seen the gore that domesticated dogs can do, which I can very much correlate to what wolves can do. In that same period of time we were dealing with poachers on our property. To this day we think the poachers where the guys that owned the dogs in the above paragraph. The poachers would coming in the back of our property and shoot does and fawns. We found 4 does with just the back straps cut out and two fawns with just the hind quarters removed. I also hunted with a set of guys from Colorado one time that I met in college. We were hunting just out side of Grand Junction and I found out at the end of our week hunting trip the way they hunt. They went out on day 2 and shot a buck. They told me that they had missed it. They continued hunting the rest of the week. At the end of the week they told me that they had to go pick this buck up that they had shot earlier in the week. I figured it out later that the plan was that if they saw a bigger buck they would shoot it and not go back for the one that they had killed on day 2. Fiftydriver, So, as far as my opinion and observations of wolves compared to humans I totally agree with you when you say that we are a much more efficient killer than any other species on this planet. I personally can kill a lot more of them than they will ever take of us. But from what I read in another thread wolves are not effecting your hunting if you took 6 big game animals last fall. You say you do not understand the fascination with people that enjoy watching predators in the wild, but in the next sentence you said it is fun to watch some aspects of their life. The fact that before we had guns and bows, humans were pack animals as well and that is how we got our food. Not every animal has learned to be so efficient, but we work together today when we go out hunting with our budies. We like the social asspect of pack hunting ourselves when we get back to camp or longrangehunting.com and start to tell our stories. Everyone has seen animal planet and how nature works. My wife wants to watch shark week on the history channel but then says “aaahhhh” every time a seal gets eaten by a shark. That is why she does not hunt. She does not have the stomach for it. Most liberals have no clue and have probably never seen the gruesome nature of what really happens when animals hunt. They can not even deal with the fact that chickens have to die so that they can go down and buy their Kentucky Fried Chicken three piece meal deal. This is why they want to take guns away from everyone and stop all hunting. I do not like watching animals get torn apart buy other animals while they are still alive but have come to the realization that until they start using guns they may not have much other choice. It might make hunting a lot more like the middle east though. In fact the Mountain Lions in our area kill when they get the chance and usually bury it for later. They do not always come back for everything they kill. I agree with this statement: “Once a wolf pack figures it can kill livestock much easier then wild game, it becomes a game. I have seen the results of two wolves wipe out an 30 sheep in one night.” This is the same as I said above about the domesticated dog. But I do think that if this is an issue you get a predation permit go take care of the issue at hand. If you get caught shooting wolves or mountain lions you will not be happy. In California if you get caught shooting a mountain lion it is a $10k fine, they take all your equipment, and you will not be able to hunt for a long while. That surely would not be worth it to me. You wrote: “Before the wolves were introduced, the game populations in Yellowstone, specifically the elk herds were thriving, actually getting to the troublesome stage with available forage for the herds and beginning to be a real pain in the rear for local ranchers. Why, because humanes were managing the herds and we did so so efficently that their numbers exploded.” I think you mean that we took care of it inefficiently? Is that correct? So, ranchers and farmers will never be happy if there are wolves or elk. Maybe we should just kill everything. Ranchers hate wolves, Farmers hate elk. What are we to do? :eek: Another idea would have been to allow hunters to hunt in the national parks. I am all up for that because I have seen some really nice bucks in Yosemite. But I guarantee that will never happen since firearms are not allowed in national parks and the liberals will never let that get over turned. I understand the cyclic cycle of predators and prey and most of the other stuff you wrote. My reply is just getting to long. Any way, I think we are in violent agreement except for the two facts: 1) I will not just drop every predator I see, because I do not think that them being around overly effect my hunting. I hunted or have buddies that have hunted in all the states that have had wolves reintroduced and we all get animals every time we go. 2) I enjoy seeing all kinds of animals when I am out hunting that most people will never see in their lives because they never leave the cities and roam into the wild. I am not trying to say that your way or my way is right or wrong. This is just my opinion. Thanks for putting out your point of view and I can not wait for your reply. This is one dumb Californian signing off for the night. Talk to you guys again in the morning. :) Sherman [/QUOTE]
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